Chaos
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DR Cap
Jan 20, 2020 21:01:22 GMT -5
Post by Chaos on Jan 20, 2020 21:01:22 GMT -5
With so many ways to raise DR (specifically, natural DR) I think we are reaching a point where having a cap would not only be good, but necessary.
I have two ideas:
1. Techs are given a hard total DR cap based on type. i.e. Fundis can not be raised beyond 5 DR, Advanced 10, and Finishers have no cap.
or
2. Techs are given a soft cap based on type. i.e. Fundis can only be boosted a total of 1.5 DR, Advanced 3, and Finishers uncapped.
Thoughts?
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DR Cap
Jan 20, 2020 22:24:16 GMT -5
Post by Dabura on Jan 20, 2020 22:24:16 GMT -5
I like option two but I think option one would be better for the site. My reasoning is that option two will lead to everyone completely abandoning the lower DR techs. As that is already kind of a problem, I think that method would only make it worse.
As for option one, I'd prefer to have a DR 4 cap on fundies, 8 on advanced, and 12 on finishers. The lone exception to this would be Tri-Beam (chargeable to 9, which is fair considering the costs of the tech).
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Chaos
Veteran Member
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DR Cap
Jan 20, 2020 22:39:38 GMT -5
Post by Chaos on Jan 20, 2020 22:39:38 GMT -5
I'd say 5, 9, and uncapped, personally. Cause even tho theres only a few DR 7s and 8s naturally that are advanced, 8 seems a bit low to the point that even charging a tech of that level one action would cap it (assuming you dont have any natural buffs as is).
Tho to be fair its important to remember that even if advanced is capped at 8 and I launch a charged rapid ion blast (should be dr 9) the charge is still beneficial as it gains the charge tag.
However I am concerned if this will be good or bad for the cancel and struggle system, as currently advanced CAN stop finishers. Whether that is something the community wants or not is up for discussion.
Like you, I prefer option 2. All the numbers are of course up for debate and the effect of things like empowerment and energy doubler as well. My main concern is natural boosts like equipment and fire temple buffs, for example.
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DR Cap
Jan 20, 2020 22:50:56 GMT -5
Post by Dabura on Jan 20, 2020 22:50:56 GMT -5
My presumption was that Energy Doubler should go back to not working on otherwise unchargeable techs.
I don't much like uncapped finishers because we've seen people get those to ridiculous heights. When the normal scale already only goes to 10, do we really need DR 15-16 or higher techs? It would only be more commonplace to see that if we capped advanced/fundies and not finisher, because then people will be even more inclined than they are now to save their boosts for their finishers.
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Chaos
Veteran Member
The Best Bout Machine
Posts: 454
Organization: Kelioux Scholars
Race: Celestial
Status: Away / Inactive
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DR Cap
Jan 20, 2020 23:21:31 GMT -5
Post by Chaos on Jan 20, 2020 23:21:31 GMT -5
True. Another thing, though I'm sure those with formulaic reffing systems may disagree, once an attack gets beyond like 13 DR it becomes pointless to think about imo lol
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DR Cap
Jan 20, 2020 23:26:38 GMT -5
Post by Dabura on Jan 20, 2020 23:26:38 GMT -5
Ultimately I'd be pro either of these over what we are dealing with now.
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DR Cap
Jan 20, 2020 23:37:05 GMT -5
Post by Yua on Jan 20, 2020 23:37:05 GMT -5
I'd really prefer something along the lines of the first option, with Fundi's having a cap of 4, advanced at cap of 9-10, and Finishers being 12-13.
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 10:50:46 GMT -5
Post by Jared Miruzuki on Jan 21, 2020 10:50:46 GMT -5
Didn't Burter suggest something to this effect not too long ago? Anyway I'd be more along the lines of going with option 1. It's a lot less limiting while still giving some viability to making use of lower tier moves.
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Mira
One Percenter
Posts: 2,066
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 12:28:53 GMT -5
Post by Mira on Jan 21, 2020 12:28:53 GMT -5
Fundies 4 (or 4.5) (5 or 5.5 for Masters) Advanced We have a DR 10 Advanced so would need to be 11 (12 for Masters) Finishers ALL IN
The issue is mostly with fundies tbh. Advanced and Finishers are limited usage. If your opponent has +DR gear they likely give up other things like stats to get it.
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Chaos
Veteran Member
The Best Bout Machine
Posts: 454
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 12:50:36 GMT -5
Post by Chaos on Jan 21, 2020 12:50:36 GMT -5
tbf not many things raise fundi DR, either naturally or through charging/boosting. Almost no need to cap them at all since they are basically capped naturally lol
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 12:54:45 GMT -5
Post by Shell on Jan 21, 2020 12:54:45 GMT -5
Sounds like you don't think we have an issue then to something you brought up.
Let's be fair though the issue is those Ki Knuckles. Now people can have Mastered, Advanced Fisticuffs, Ki Manipulation, Ki Knuckle Sera Punch at DR 5 and 1% Ki. Oh you Shishio that here comes Same Thing but Blast Punch at DR 4.
I said 4.5 because that is mastering the highest DR Fundie and nothing else, but Mouth Blast Barrage in theory could get 5.5 at 2% Ki even without the Ki Knuckles and it hits all opponents or is harder to dodge.
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Chaos
Veteran Member
The Best Bout Machine
Posts: 454
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 13:40:02 GMT -5
Post by Chaos on Jan 21, 2020 13:40:02 GMT -5
What? Just cause I think fundis don't necessarily require a cap because they are harder to boost, I don't think there is an issue? That's...really weird logic.
Anyway, the problem is just as you stated. The problem is things like flame shield (in multiple ways) getting up to DR 12. The problem is undodgeable AOE finishers hitting 15 DR. Fundis are getting wild, specifically for fisticuffs users with the ki knuckles, but the primary issue is advanced and finishers.
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 14:58:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Lilim on Jan 21, 2020 14:58:51 GMT -5
What? Just cause I think fundis don't necessarily require a cap because they are harder to boost, I don't think there is an issue? That's...really weird logic. Anyway, the problem is just as you stated. The problem is things like flame shield (in multiple ways) getting up to DR 12. The problem is undodgeable AOE finishers hitting 15 DR. Fundis are getting wild, specifically for fisticuffs users with the ki knuckles, but the primary issue is advanced and finishers. Flame Shield DR 2 + Master + Signature + Fire Temple + Ki Manipulation + Solarweave Cloak = DR 6.5. Its unclear if Doubler, Hypnosis and Empowered work on Flame Shield because it's not really an attack so much as just a buff to yourself that damages opponents. I'm not sure where the DR 12 Flame Shield comes from, unless it's just a gross exaggeration or if the assumption is that those three things apply to Flame shield, which I'm not sure they really do. And even if they did, we're talking 3 actions to do it. That being said, I'm not opposed to some form of cap on techniques in general, but if we're going to put controls on techniques, I definitely think Time Freeze needs an adjustment/nerf as well (with a correlating reduction in costs to match). Overall, I think the hard cap on techniques would work better than just saying max of +1.5 DR for a technique, since that's just going to promote only the strongest of techniques in the first place.
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Chaos
Veteran Member
The Best Bout Machine
Posts: 454
Organization: Kelioux Scholars
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 15:28:17 GMT -5
Post by Chaos on Jan 21, 2020 15:28:17 GMT -5
DR 2 + Master + Signature + Fire Temple + Ki Manipulation + Solarweave Cloak + (assuming it can be charged) 1 for charged + 1 for Ki knuckles + 1 for Kinetic Energy Gloves + 1 for soul ring
That's like 10.5 DR. Not sure about charging or empowering, but if you can't see an issue even with 6.5 DR flame shields than idk what to tell you, but really it was just an example. You can take other techs that have the CE: Burn added through the fire temple. For example, for 2 actions I can make an AoE that is DR: 11.5 with burn (for free with Ki Well).
There's a thread for the Time Freeze discussion, as I'm sure you're aware.
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DR Cap
Jan 21, 2020 16:18:16 GMT -5
Post by Shell on Jan 21, 2020 16:18:16 GMT -5
TLDR: Remove Ki knuckles, make defensive technique like Flame Shield be defensive and so all the stuff that improves attacks goes away (also make it only work when hit and not a buff to attacks), Remove Hypnosis. Also someone tried to lock the Time Freeze thread and say it was the final word...
Also when you say You think things need a cap and then say it isn't needed on Fundies and Finishers it is disagreeing with yourself. If your concern is Advanced Techs then say that is the concern don't sugarcoat it with "issues" on other types when you don't have issues with them.
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