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Topic Started: May 19 2009, 05:55 PM (1,546 Views)
Tasuda
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we can keep this going as long as there is no actual bashing. If bashing does start, it will be locked. Some seem to enjoy this.

Like Appule I use the bible as a guide. It was written by men, men who learned from another that had a lot of love for humans. A man who had his beliefs and refused to give into "what was cool" (Per-say).

But yes there are many stories about great floods. Around the time of Noah, there was a flood. It didn't cover the entire planet but it was definitely massive. The way I see this is, too most at that time, what they saw was their "world". They didn't know the America's existed, or that the Antarctic was there. They were on a huge boat with no sail (per what has been said in the story and what not) and no engine. They could've been floating for quite some time before finding land again.

Some historians are finding evidence that the Moses story could be possible. There is a patch of land under the red sea that is a bit close to the surface and wide enough for many people to walk across. There was a volcano nearby as well that had erupted around that time. When it does erupt, the water moves leaving the land to be able to walk across. Possible, yes. Still a theory though.

The problem I see is that both sides are so bent on proving one another wrong that they don't think about the other possibilities. Could the big bang have happened? Still a theory. Scientists are trying to figure that out now. So here's another look at it.

"What if the big band did happen? What if in fact that is how God created the earth?"

In the bible it doesn't give detail as to how the universe was created. It just says it was. Out of dirt he made man. How is that any different than the primal ooze? Also many things were removed, added, edited, fixed, translated, re-translated, re-edited, added, removed, and so on. There are reasons there are so many versions of the bible. The argument that "God would never allow his word to be corrupted" doesn't apply to the many books. We have proof on our shelves to show this. I don't think it was the book itself he was referring to. You read any bible, it says different things, in different ways. But the meaning remains.

I'm just saying that yes I may believe in something no one can see, something that can't be proven, but I'm not doing it without some logic or reasoning. I've had my own incidences that strengthened my beliefs. I do feel like someone is watching out for me. Whether that is my brother, an angel, or God, or just me having a 6th sense. I don't know, but I like to believe.

Either way, no one will know what is true and what is not till they die. Atheists could be right, mormons could be right, or even the fables told to children. This is why I take middle road. I look at things differently and ask myself everything that is thrown at me. Hell, I've even defended Islam. lol. That was fun proving people wrong about that one. People need to learn to read around the verses as well. lol. So much is missed.
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perfectchaos0z
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But yes there are many stories about great floods. Around the time of Noah, there was a flood. It didn't cover the entire planet but it was definitely massive. The way I see this is, too most at that time, what they saw was their "world". They didn't know the America's existed, or that the Antarctic was there. They were on a huge boat with no sail (per what has been said in the story and what not) and no engine. They could've been floating for quite some time before finding land again.


The flood stories are mostly centered around in that area, which has lots of heavy flooding quite a bit. Maybe these stories are just of really huge ones that happened?

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Some historians are finding evidence that the Moses story could be possible. There is a patch of land under the red sea that is a bit close to the surface and wide enough for many people to walk across. There was a volcano nearby as well that had erupted around that time. When it does erupt, the water moves leaving the land to be able to walk across. Possible, yes. Still a theory though.


If they just walked across on land under the water, how did he drown the army that was following them? :P

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In the bible it doesn't give detail as to how the universe was created. It just says it was. Out of dirt he made man. How is that any different than the primal ooze? Also many things were removed, added, edited, fixed, translated, re-translated, re-edited, added, removed, and so on. There are reasons there are so many versions of the bible. The argument that "God would never allow his word to be corrupted" doesn't apply to the many books. We have proof on our shelves to show this. I don't think it was the book itself he was referring to. You read any bible, it says different things, in different ways. But the meaning remains.


I've never liked 'combining' creationism and evolution into one neat package. it says he did it in seven days, not millions of years.
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jennabug
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"What if the big bang did happen? What if in fact that is how God created the earth?"


This is something I've often thought about, I even think this may be true. No where in the Bible [I have read the entire thing and I am NOT a selective reader. I am a strong christian.] does it say that this could not be true. There is nothing that points to such a thing being impossible either.

The bible simply says God made the universe, nothing more. He could of made the universe with a big 'bang'.
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Windaria
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The one thing that makes me mad is when religious people come to my door or stop me on the street to tell me that because I don't believe in their religion that god won't save me in armegedon (if I spelled that right).

So many times I've been told I was going to hell, you don't see me running around and doing the same to other religions. My beliefs are right for me, everyone has the right to believe in whatever without people invading your personal life telling you to stop living a life of sin lol

But if the adam and eve thing did happen we would all be related would we not?

I must admit though not religious I do enjoy the tale of adam and eve :)
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Disgraced Vegeta
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Windaria,May 22 2009
06:33 AM
The one thing that makes me mad is when religious people come to my door or stop me on the street to tell me that because I don't believe in their religion that god won't save me in armegedon (if I spelled that right).

Hahahaha. This has honestly NEVER happened to me.
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Windaria
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Seriously?? It has happened to me so many times lol
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Seta
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I like being told I'm going to hell because I'm a celtic pagan. I'm like 'Oh...what? What is this hell of which you speak? I'm afraid I'm going to summerland'
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Adam1
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Yamcha,May 22 2009
02:44 AM
Toma,May 22 2009
01:35 AM
A'grahl,May 21 2009
10:51 PM
Wow...that is wicked. This turned from a decent conversation to bashing. Seriously, as far as the bible is concerned it is a great book. Oh, and I'd hate to break it to ya Toma, but I have never been religious and I still know there are plenty of things from the bible that are true.

The flood really did happen, albeit not nearly as big as it was assumed.

Also, the whole having to go to church to repent thing only applies to catholics who have commited a sin far beyond their ability to repent for such as murder or adultury.

The whole church not accepting homosexuality, inter-racial relationships, etc. is all based on a community, not a belief. People can preach equality, but if the world around you is used to blacks being slaves or women being house ridden subserviant peons then guess what buddy..... I don't know if you know this, becuase it's a well kept government secret, but fucking colleges were prejudiced and still are. Cry me a river if you're shocked that churches are like that. Guess what else? Cafes and hotels can be prejudiced. too, based upon the owners.

Trying to throw the Spanish inquisition in the churches face is hilarious too btw, as again, this is something determined by the community. These are people that determined if you were a witch by throwing you in the water and if you could swim they burnt you at the stake, if you drowned then you were not a witch and they left it at that.

Oh, and 90% of the shit in that picture was slander and apparantly s/he who was responsible did little to no research to the correction made of the old testament. Oh well though, as they know everything like most athiests.

I am agnostic for a reason, you can NEVER know there is nothing out there. You can NEVER know you are right about the afterlife. Also, you can't hate something. You can't hate a belief. It's impossible, as it is unique to everyone who fucking believes it. Tasuda, for example, believes in God differently than my mother. My mother believes differently than my father. As well, some fucking morons don't believe there was a goddamn holocaust.

In short, don't knock people for believing. Believing is what keeps us all going. You have to believe in something, be it yourself, someone else, a divine entity or that James Earl Jones is going to morph into a fucking tentacle monster and destroy the Earth. Whatever it is, you do believe in something and it's no man's right to tell someone they are wrong for believing.


EDIT: My FAVORITE part was the tidbit about not inheriting sins. Another pretty thing in this world is something I call debt. If your parent have debt and die, because they were fuckbags and couldn't manage their money, guess who gets to pay it? Not the state, or the country, you do!

I really love that GIF though, as I study religion and that in no way was a good attempt at bashing Christianity. lol

No one is really bashing anyone here. We are just expressing our different opinions on the bible. The flood you mention was also mentioned in the epic Gilgamesh. But obviously a man who was two thirds a god never existed, we know this. But I never said anything about the bible not containing any truth in it. But a lot of books use cities that exist in real life but fictional stories. Also I see you are bashing atheist, but the truth is it contained actual information there. Also you didn't read the above text that showed that adam and eve couldn't be blamed because at that time they couldn't tell the difference between what is good and evil. The reason they couldn't is because they had no eaten from the tree of knowledge. Also Tasuda had no problem with my post I made sure of it through verbal communication. Also as far as bashing goes it seem you made a fallacy toward atheist. Atheist never said they knew everything just understand logical fallacies from the bible. It isn't forcing your opinion on someone if he wanted to argue it in the first place. Which Tasuda said he was fine with. You choosing the middle path is very similar to a atheist in the eyes of a religious person. That your soul already belongs to the devil.


1: Why was the word fallacy being throne around so casually ? "A fallacy is an argument that is not logically valid"

You must not have learned of the golden mean then, Choosing the middle path is the only one true way to enlightenment, and goes beyond the realm of religion and into logic. In fact it was one of the personal philosophy of one of the greatest minds in western thought.

In this particular context what it could possibly be interpreted is... being 'too' pious or over zealous is just as destructive in having no faith at all. your back at square one tossing rocks at your neighbor. Try to play nice guys lol


The fallacy part had nothing to do with the being in the middle. But as spokovich pointed out they would be gunning from both sides to get the agnostics. Also its your opinion on what you consider being the middle part in the first place yamcha. That also differs from person to person. But main thing is that if your any of sort of christian you believe that they would go to hell just the same as any atheist. So its still picking the other side. Most atheist don't have any problems with agnostics. Most christians do have problems with agnostic people. Since religion has made itself so well known that it even has a lot of political power it can't really be ignored as a person's personal preference. But that is just my opinion. At least religion sometimes tries to bring out a good moral standard on how to to live your life. But the message usually becomes misconstrued. Also as far as the flood goes they have shown that one probably dis occur. However, it wasn't a flood that swept the entire world like the one in the noah story. They said that would be highly unlikely to occur.
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Alex
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Tasuda
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Spopovich,May 22 2009
01:51 AM

The flood stories are mostly centered around in that area, which has lots of heavy flooding quite a bit. Maybe these stories are just of really huge ones that happened?



If they just walked across on land under the water, how did he drown the army that was following them? :P



I've never liked 'combining' creationism and evolution into one neat package. it says he did it in seven days, not millions of years.

Spopo, it says 7 days but if you read later in the bible, it talks about how long a day is in heaven in comparison to earth. 10,000 years (or so) for each day in heaven. So 6 days (60,000 years) the universe was created. Or if you want to take a look at it another way, the events were set in motion. Earth itself could've been made in 60,000 years. The sky way back then would be way different so I mean they probably wouldn't have had a star filled sky like we do. So I mean the one thing people gotta do is not compare it to what we know or have today.

They don't know how long it took for planet earth to be created or the rest of the universe. 7 days yes is a bit ridiculous unless you look at it from what is said about the time frame. And even then no plants were growing and no life was around. Not till after day 7 did that happen. So the 70,000 years was just a preparation. Afterwards it does not say how long it took for life to happen. It doesn't say "on day eight, man walked the earth". No, it stops counting on 7. So in truth, the two can very well be combined. The bible says nothing about evolution not happening or the big bang not happening. And also this is the translated version. When you translate, you translate the best you can do. Sometimes there are no translations for some words or words are "made up" to make it make sense. From what my step dad found in his own translations is that in genesis it doesn't say created. It says recreated. Which would be huge and say that things were still around solidifying the possible combination of the 2 theories as then it doesn't say how the universe was created.

So I mean what we have now is what the church says is "correct". There's the vatican library which has tons of scrolls and books. So how much of it is actually known? For me I'd be interested in reading about all of them. Including the book of Judas lol.
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Adam1
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Hey Tasuda check this site out:http://skepticsannotatedbible.com
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Seta
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I can't believe a simple scientific find was turned into a theological debate...
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Tasuda
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I booked marked that site. But why is it a contradiction to say "In the beginning?"


NVM I see what they are saying. God created man on the 6th day. And they are confused as to why man was created when genesis says plants and animals were created first and yet no plants and animals existed.

Simple,

God created everything, then created man. He rested on day 7. Of the amplified bible it then states that nothing was living (paraphrasing) so god gave the breath of life to man and let a fog roll down and give water to the plants to grow. The beginning of Genesis is a brief history as to what happened. Nothing more. After it's more of the story. God created everything, but nothing was living. The pieces were there and just had to be put together.

But yeah I'm gonna read that and see if I can't clear it up. Cause if you aren't careful yes it seems like the bible is full of contradictions. When you actually think about it, it's not, just written differently.
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Adam1
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It is full of contradictions. Plus if you read quote I made earlier by einstein. It is apparent that if a God did exist and cared about us he would of given a better message than the bible. It isn't even a clear message in the bible about how to get into heaven. Plus let us not forget dinosaur roamed this planet ages ago before we did. I think that is a bit ridiculous to just to say they were the animals that the bible spoke of.
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Tasuda
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well first off, the bible was written a very long time ago. Many things made sense to them and not us. The bible itself is clear if you sit down, read and actually study it.

And who's to say humans didn't live in the time of the dinosaurs? We have found some very old remains, but even then, the planet was filled with thousands of the beasts and we've only found a few hundred. So I mean, just because we haven't found human remains from billions of years ago, doesn't mean they didn't exist. Everything we know about that age is still a theory. It's unproven. And if you read the beginning of genesis, it talks about monsters and what not. And even if it's just the animals that were created. My previous bit about the recreation and not the creation still stands. It's known, some cataclysmic event happened that wiped out the dinosaurs. Who's to say that the recreation happened after? There is a massive amount of time between the dinosaurs and and records of life after. If the word was supposed to be recreation and not creation, then we are looking at possibly after the dinosaur era the book of genesis started in.
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Religious people are stupid.


Wow, I hate to tell the owner of the place to try and not make us look bad, but.... try and not make us look bad.

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Spopo, it says 7 days but if you read later in the bible, it talks about how long a day is in heaven in comparison to earth. 10,000 years (or so) for each day in heaven. So 6 days (60,000 years) the universe was created. Or if you want to take a look at it another way, the events were set in motion. Earth itself could've been made in 60,000 years. The sky way back then would be way different so I mean they probably wouldn't have had a star filled sky like we do. So I mean the one thing people gotta do is not compare it to what we know or have today.


I knew you were going to bring up that exact passage! XD My rebuttal is, if you read Genesis 1:12-15 it says "12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so."

Which means the sun was created the day after plants, making it rather hard for plants to survive for million odd so years.. :P

I refer to your second part with a question, do you believe God can do anything?

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So I mean what we have now is what the church says is "correct". There's the vatican library which has tons of scrolls and books. So how much of it is actually known? For me I'd be interested in reading about all of them. Including the book of Judas lol.


Yeah, I know, I've always thought what if someone (perhaps one of the translations) put stuff in there that was their opinion? Or even one of the original writers? You can't trust it as pure fact to live your life by at all. The Book of Judas is an interesting book, even if its just as dry as the normal Bible.

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It is full of contradictions. Plus if you read quote I made earlier by einstein. It is apparent that if a God did exist and cared about us he would of given a better message than the bible. It isn't even a clear message in the bible about how to get into heaven. Plus let us not forget dinosaur roamed this planet ages ago before we did. I think that is a bit ridiculous to just to say they were the animals that the bible spoke of.


Great beasts are mentioned in the Bible, its not like they were completely ignorant of them. I can't recall any specific passages, however. I do agree that God could have given a much better message, had he existed. Most Christians I've talked to postulate that if such 'sign' happened then people who don't believe still wouldn't believe.

Besides, the Christian religion is based on faith, and you can't have faith if you have proof.
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Seta
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I have faith that the deities above wish for us to find answers to our questions and find out about the world around us and not just wallow in ignorance.
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perfectchaos0z
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Yeah, but Faith is totally independent from facts. Some people would probably convert if there was indisputable proof that Christians are the only one ever, but if it was proven wrong its much the same. Only some Christians would convert over.

The Bible is an interesting read and has some good mythology in it, but its much like reading about the Greek Pantheon. Some of the stories are nice but you aren't going to apply it to your life or believe in it. But, like I said about proof earlier, even some people still believe in Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc pagan myth. XD I love pagans, though. Lmao.
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Tasuda
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Faith is independent from facts. It's why it's called faith and not fact.

faith is the belief in something that necessarily can't be proven.

"I have faith in you." You have faith in someone to do something though they may not have proven it. It's a common thing. Scientists have faith that the big bang happened. It's not proven.

Many things are just beliefs. Many believe that there is life in the universe. Hell I believe that. It's not proven but quite possible and honestly probable. why would we be the only ones in the universe? lol.
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Spopovich,May 22 2009
06:11 PM
Yeah, but Faith is totally independent from facts. Some people would probably convert if there was indisputable proof that Christians are the only one ever, but if it was proven wrong its much the same. Only some Christians would convert over.

The Bible is an interesting read and has some good mythology in it, but its much like reading about the Greek Pantheon. Some of the stories are nice but you aren't going to apply it to your life or believe in it. But, like I said about proof earlier, even some people still believe in Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc pagan myth. XD I love pagans, though. Lmao.

You mean like me? Celtic Pagan 'myth' more than anything tho... *shrug* You can believe in an afterlife but still use your brain. You can still learn about everything around you.

I don't like the idea of being blind to any other possibilities.
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perfectchaos0z
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You mentioned Summerland, I assumed you were a Wiccan. Celtic Pagan, like Druidism?
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Seta
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Not just wiccans believe in summerland. Celtic Pagan...Celtic polytheism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_polytheism

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While some non-Wiccan Pagans may hold the Summerland to be their afterlife,
-Wikipedia

Celtic Polytheists don't have an established 'afterlife area' besides 'otherworld' which some debate that it is an afterlife for us. But...*shrugs* That's not the point.

I love the find this thread was originally intended for and I'm itching to take more anthropology classes.
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Sorry if I offended, I didn't know, I just immediately associate the two. ^^;

Yeah, anthropology. I'm really interested in what 'Aunt Ida' can teach us. XD
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I'm not offended, in fact I relish the chance to educate people about my religion. Most people associate it with sacrifice and pig's blood. But yeah, that's what most people think. I started out as a christian, then turned to Wicca, then finally settled into celtic polytheism. If ya ever have any questions, I'm always happy to answer them over AIM.

Anthropology is a main passion of mine. I'm always looking up new things that have transpired. I hope to use anthropology to solve crimes (forensic anthropology) one day.
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