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Suggestion (razak Please Read); Students/Pupils/HBTC
Topic Started: Oct 3 2009, 12:44 PM (1,347 Views)
NoJeice
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Made by Dende:

Dende's Say

Tree of Might: (Unchanged)

Hyperbolic Time Chamber:

(i) Must be Lawful Good and more than 25,000 pl.
(ii) +1250 all stats (+5000 ki, + 10000 pl), +300 exp, +20 SP, +25 DP, +2 Fighting Style Level.

OR:

Must be Lawful Good and over 20,000 Pl.
+1250 all stats or +25% of current ok.

Whichever of the above you like the most.


Underling: (Unchanged)

Student:

(i) Must be Lawful Good.
(ii) Start with 1/2 of Master's stats.
(iii) Can be of any race except Changeling and Demon. (Also includes part Changelings and part Demons as in Hybrids)
(iv) Recieves race specific bonuses.
(v) Can only Partner Train or Self Train.
(vi) Start with 10 SP and can only learn moves already learnt by master by spending required SP.
(vii) Can search for any item.
(viii) Can learn 2 advanced techniques and 6 fundametals.
(ix) Can be equipped with any item if their master has also equipped that item.



I made these suggestions to balance out Good vs. Evil. Hopefully they can be added into the patch
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Tambourine
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Then the HTC would be better than the ToM.
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jennabug
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If the HBTC added +50% each use, it would be still better.
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NoJeice
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then we can make it +45% to stats, making it worse than TOM still. Alright? I just want somthing better than what we have now

EDIT: Or we can make it +75% all stats, but a one time use thing
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Tambourine
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45% would still be better.
100k->145k
145k->210,25k

EDIT: 75% one time sounds... nice.
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NoJeice
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Tambourine,Oct 3 2009
11:57 AM
45% would still be better.
100k->145k
145k->210,25k

Fine then, 40% would make it slightly worse.

100K --> 140k
140K --> 196K

EDIT: Anyone like the Ideas for the Students and Pupils?
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nirvana4748
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Jeice,Oct 3 2009
11:44 AM
Alright, here is suggestion #1:
For the HBTC:
It should be reamped, 5k per use is nothing, Ive gained that in one update without it before. I Think it should be like gain 45% of your current stats. Or +75% but only can be used once. That way its still not as good as TOM, since it uses less planning. And It makes it more worth the trip to Earth.

Suggestion #2:
For Good/Lawful Good to get somthing like an officer or underling:
Pupil: Like a underling, but sounds like somthing a lawful good person would have. Like Kami had Mr. Popo with him, Roshi had his pupils and students.

Student:
Like an Officer, to help you out when you need them.

I made these suggestions to balance out Good vs. Evil. Hopefully they can be added into the patch

Another good v. evil thread? Sigh.

If it hasn't been resolved yet, it's not going to be changed. There's a reason the HBTC is the way it is and the ToM is the way it is.
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Angira
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Personally, I would think that the HBTC would give you a greater benefit than the TOM. The TOM is only supposed to increase your power x10...but the HBTC gives you 365 Days of training, which can easily allow you to gain more than x10 of your current PL.

I mean, Gohan went from non-ssj to SSJ2 potential in 1 trip into the HBTC and all that turles got was his ass handed to him by a Spirit Bomb (and it wasn't even that powerful of one).
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Tambourine
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Maybe it should let you to do X weeks of training in one week?
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NoJeice
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Reijin,Oct 3 2009
12:15 PM
Personally, I would think that the HBTC would give you a greater benefit than the TOM.  The TOM is only supposed to increase your power x10...but the HBTC gives you 365 Days of training, which can easily allow you to gain more than x10 of your current PL.

I mean, Gohan went from non-ssj to SSJ2 potential in 1 trip into the HBTC and all that turles got was his ass handed to him by a Spirit Bomb (and it wasn't even that powerful of one).

Yes Thank you! Someone who thinks it should be better. But I do think we should keep the TOM stronger, since it takes much more planning. But +40% to your Stats is good and far better than the gains we have now. So yeah, I think It should be better. I dont care if its not as good as HBTC, but I want it to be close. And what do you people think on the idea about the Pupils and Students?

EDIT: Tambourine, that would be super confusing lol
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Angira
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A pupil and a student are pretty mucht he same thing. Not bad ideas, but would need some more depth in my opinion.
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nirvana4748
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Jeice,Oct 3 2009
12:20 PM
Reijin,Oct 3 2009
12:15 PM
Personally, I would think that the HBTC would give you a greater benefit than the TOM.  The TOM is only supposed to increase your power x10...but the HBTC gives you 365 Days of training, which can easily allow you to gain more than x10 of your current PL.

I mean, Gohan went from non-ssj to SSJ2 potential in 1 trip into the HBTC and all that turles got was his ass handed to him by a Spirit Bomb (and it wasn't even that powerful of one).

Yes Thank you! Someone who thinks it should be better. But I do think we should keep the TOM stronger, since it takes much more planning. But +40% to your Stats is good and far better than the gains we have now. So yeah, I think It should be better. I dont care if its not as good as HBTC, but I want it to be close. And what do you people think on the idea about the Pupils and Students?

EDIT: Tambourine, that would be super confusing lol

It wouldn't be that confusing, it has been proposed before and I believe that it was assumed that was how it was going to work when I first joined because Alex didn't have any specific benefits for it at the time.

Either way, I don't think anything really needs to be changed here. They're both different for different reasons. Yeah, ToM CAN be significantly stronger, but it can also be significantly weaker.

There's no doubting that the ToM upside is much greater than the HBTC upside, but in like 90% of these debates we ultimately decide that since evil characters are always stronger in the show, chaotic evil characters get a greater power boost.
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Tambourine
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Pupil and Student are fine I guess... but they should have a flaw to make them a bit worse than henchmen.
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nirvana4748
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Tambourine,Oct 3 2009
12:31 PM
Pupil and Student are fine I guess... but they should have a flaw to make them a bit worse than henchmen.

My question is how many pupils and/or students did Goku, Gohan, Goten, Piccolo, Vegeta, Trunks, etc have?
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Old Videl
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You know the way the system is right now, is to make it so that there's a balanced amount of good and evil characters, right? If you were to increase the gains of the HBTC, all you would be doing is encouraging even more people to be Lawful Good (which is not what's intended here).

Not only that, isn't it the chaotically evil folks the ones that are more madly in love with power?

I haven't used any kind of TOM or HBTC and yet I've managed to be in the number 1 spot.

The system is fine the way it is and has been working for quite a long while now.
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Ra
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Gohan,Oct 3 2009
01:32 PM
My question is how many pupils and/or students did Goku, Gohan, Goten, Piccolo, Vegeta, Trunks, etc have?

Goku: 2 (Gohan and Uub)
Piccolo: 1 (Gohan)
Gohan: 2 (Videl, Goten)

Could all be considered students / pupils
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Rilldo
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If a lawful good person wants to use the HBTC, no one can prevent it. If us chaotic evils want to ToM, everyone has a fair chance to stop us. I think that is more than a reasonable reason for HBTC to be relatively weaker than the ToM.
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nirvana4748
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Ra,Oct 3 2009
12:36 PM
Goku: 2 (Gohan and Uub)
Piccolo: 1 (Gohan)
Gohan: 2 (Videl, Goten)

Could all be considered students / pupils

No they couldn't because they're all like main characters. There's a difference between training someone and making them your "pupils."
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Ra
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Gohan,Oct 3 2009
01:38 PM
Ra,Oct 3 2009
12:36 PM
Goku: 2 (Gohan and Uub)
Piccolo: 1 (Gohan)
Gohan: 2 (Videl, Goten)

Could all be considered students / pupils

No they couldn't because they're all like main characters. There's a difference between training someone and making them your "pupils."

The ginyu force could have been considered main characters in the frieza saga, as well as officers.
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nirvana4748
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Ra,Oct 3 2009
12:44 PM
Gohan,Oct 3 2009
01:38 PM
Ra,Oct 3 2009
12:36 PM
Goku: 2 (Gohan and Uub)
Piccolo: 1 (Gohan)
Gohan: 2 (Videl, Goten)

Could all be considered students / pupils

No they couldn't because they're all like main characters. There's a difference between training someone and making them your "pupils."

The ginyu force could have been considered main characters in the frieza saga, as well as officers.

Other than Videl, you mentioned 3 characters who were protagonists in the series, just just a saga or two. Either way, the Ginyu Force would be on the fence between a "main character" and an officer.
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Tambourine
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Anyway, those "pupils" never fought with their "masters" or aided them or anything. They were just trained by them.
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NoJeice
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Videl,Oct 3 2009
12:36 PM
You know the way the system is right now, is to make it so that there's a balanced amount of good and evil characters, right? If you were to increase the gains of the HBTC, all you would be doing is encouraging even more people to be Lawful Good (which is not what's intended here).

Not only that, isn't it the chaotically evil folks the ones that are more madly in love with power?

I haven't used any kind of TOM or HBTC and yet I've managed to be in the number 1 spot.

The system is fine the way it is and has been working for quite a long while now.

Ohh, I guess Goku trained every day for nothing then right? I mean, he didn't train every day to be the weakest. He wanted to be the best, and thats what I want.

@19: Yes, I know the TOM takes more planning. But, nobody has tried to stop the last two people on using the TOM.

@Tambourine:
Uub fought with Goku in GT, if that counts. And Gohan fought with Piccolo against Garlic Jr. Videl and Gohan fought together as great saiyaman and woman.

But right now the HBTC is horrible, I will probably only use it when I need a quick fighting style lvl up. 40% all stats is fair, considering you have to wait 2 months to use it again. The TOM is a one time thing, with massive gains. Anyway guys, this is a suggestion. Half of you act like this is defintly happening, Reijin likes it already. I just hope Razak likes it now, I'm sorry to all those who disagree with me if I made you mad or somthing.
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Old Videl
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When I said "madly in love with power", I meant do anything possible to achieve it. I'm pretty sure if Goku had the opportunity to wish for immortality or even eat the TOM, he wouldn't do it.

Evil villains on the other hand wouldn't mind doing what ever it takes to get the power they want.
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Angira
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Pupils always fight with their masters >.>


Goku and Krillin with Master Roshi vs. King Piccolo
Gohan and Piccolo vs. Nappa
Gohan and Piccolo vs. Garlic Jr
Future Gohan and Trunks vs. Android 17 and 18
Piccolo, Goten, Trunks vs. Majin Buu
Uub and Goku vs. Bebi Vegeta

I'm sure that there are more, but most fights in DBZ are 1vs1 anyway xD

And not that I agree that it SHOULD change, but evil people aren't always more powerful thant he good guys in DBZ, otherwise the series would have ended.

Raditz vs. Goku/Piccolo: Raditz
Nappa vs. Z-Force: Nappa
Vegeta vs. Goku: Vegeta
Sure, those are.

But after those, it was a a bounce back and forth. One second Vegeta was getting own, he'd heal, come back and effortlessly destroy people (IE: Kui and Zarbon).

Meanwhile, Trunks came back in time and owned King Cold and Frieza like it was nothing. Goku would have owned 19 and 20 had it not been for the heart disease. Gohan and Piccolo were more powerful than all the "Spice Boys", and Garlic Jr was just immortal. 17 and Piccolo were completely even. Piccolo was about equal with Imperfect Cell. Vegeta could have destroyed Cell and so could have Trunks.

Gohan then did defeat Trunks. Goku could have killed Fat Buu. Gotenks most likely would have defeated Super Buu. Vegetto could have killed Super Buu, but wanted to save their friends. Goku then did defeat Buu.

lol

So my point is that there was absolutely no balance in DBZ. Every 10 episodes there was a new 'strongest' character, only to be replaced within 10 more episodes. So saying that you're evil shouldn't mean your super powerful when in fact, being truly "Good" is probably the hardest thing to accomplish =O
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