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Suggestion; Razak plz
Topic Started: May 10 2010, 03:10 PM (1,098 Views)
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The Real Red Magma
I only stated that it would be exclusive to Aliens/Changelings because of the whole Saiyan's only ranking system. But then considering the stuff I've written and the stuff from the series, it seems only logical for the PTO to employ any capable and useful workers/warriors.

A pre-requisite would definitely be negative alignment.

EDIT: And yes, Teh's right. Sayain Empire suckszzz :D
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Diive
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TBH I'm pretty sure the Saiyans never had a canon Empire. They were a Kingdom ruled by the Kold family.

And they were killed off before their true potential was enough to rival the Kolds. Out of FEAR, they were eliminated.

And ultimately, Saiyans ended the entire Kold family line. They never say what happened to the Empire, but I feel confident saying that it was probably torn apart by warring factions and ended as many small kingdoms or whatever.

The Saiyans were held back by their primitive nature for a long time, true ... but if they had been given the chance to rise up against the Kolds, who knows?

And yes,

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No doubt the Changelings are sweet ... Frieza is the best villain ever. Nothing but respect for the Kold Empire, but why all the Saiyan hatin?
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Tehran'he,May 10 2010
06:21 PM
Why must you point out the fruit in your argument with me? It's not like I've used it.

And, tbh, The Saiyan Empire did nothing. They were basically weak saiyans + King Vegeta. That's about it until Bardock's time. And even then, those numbers are sad.

You are the only impressive thing about it, and you don't even exist in DBZ. So... pwnt.

I do so. Have you not seen the very end of DBZ? You know, at like 3 years old i beat up a 12 year old in the Tenkaichi Budokai?

You have to have a kingdom to have a King. You have to be strong enough and well known enough to garner the attention of Frieza, yes? So, the Saiyans had to have done that, yes?

Anywho... Ranking structure no for the PTO. But quests? Sure.
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Fonos
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Diive, your comments make sense. But the fact is, they used to have an empire. But the Cold family enslaved them, and fairly easily. From there, they were used until their worth died. The saiyans were not murdered out of fear, but out of necessity. You cannot have strong slaves oppose the masters. And as for the last comment, why all the changeling hatin'? This started because the changelings were called weaker than the saiyans (which is a downright lie).

Ooh, yes Pan. King Vegeta was very proud. And I already mentioned your second point up above.

Unfair, much? The saiyans were much less structured than the changelings. They were 'barbarians.' If they were smart enough to have a ranking system, the changelings certainly would have had one, and a more advanced one at that. From what we can glean, all they cared about was heirarchy and social status.
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Seta
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It is a well-known fact that Frieza feared the Saiyans' potential. You can't deny it.

We know they were organized if Nappa was the commander of the Saiyan Army. *shrugs*

We can debate this until the cows come home, but the thing is... Alex is right.
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Diive,May 10 2010
05:40 PM
TBH I'm pretty sure the Saiyans never had a canon Empire. They were a Kingdom ruled by the Kold family.

Actually in the manga, can't remember if it also happens int he anime, Nappa makes reference to a 'Saiyan Empire' when discussing Gohan with Vegeta.

The conversation essentially ran with the question of whether Raditz's scouter was malfunctioning to read Gohan at 780, Vegeta makes the assertion that with how much Raditz was injured from that one attack it doesn't seem likely.

The two make the guess that a human/saiyan hybrid might actually be stronger than a pure saiyan leading Nappa to comment

"So if we breed a flock of 'em ourselves, we could build another saiyan empire."

So it implies that at SOME point before Frieza destroyed the planet there was a Saiyan Empire. My theory has always been that the saiyans were basically suzerains under the Cold family.

They'd had a certain amount of territory already under their control, but essentially their 'foreign policy' was directed by the Changelings while they could do what they want with their planetary system/it's neighbors.
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Diive
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Makes sense. I have not had the privilege of reading any of the manga, my knowledge comes from the remastered DBZ. I'm excited to watch Kai tho... looks promising.

Anywho, that convo between Naps and Veggie proves me wrong on that point. Apparently they had a canon Empire.

But as Pan has said, it's made clear many times that Frieza destroyed them out of fear.

It was also my understanding that changelings are inherently stronger than Saiyans, but were much fewer in numbers and without much potential for outgrowing the Ki they are born with. And then there are Saiyans who were greater in number, started much weaker but have huge growth potential.

Either way, I think both races have their own strong points. But there's no changing the fact that the DB universe was written to be centered on the Saiyans, and the Changelings were created to fill the need for a greater enemy. Said another way, Changelings were created for the purpose of being defeated by Saiyans.

Anyway, much love Changeling peeps. The DB universe needs strong enemies and there are none better than the Changelings.
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To be honest, I never figured Changelings to be ones for training. They were born with that power, and had forms to release each level of power (e.g. 500,000; 1,000,000; etc.,)

The Saiyans on the other hand, as Diive said, were born weak and had the potential to overpower the Changelings, as shown by Trunks and Goku's annihilation of King Cold, Frieza, and Cooler.

But really, must we get into this? LOL
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Dabura
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No long elaborate speech... but Saiyan Empire = Fail. Changelings are much cooler, anyways. I only didn't think it fair that only Aliens and Changeling's should be able to be part of the PTO. I actually even said Saiyans have enough of their own benefits without being one of the races allowed to become involved in this, but that some other races should be, such as Androids.
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Gosai
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Eh, sometimes it can be fun. The lack of training thing though could definitely explain the fact that Frieza (and I presume King Cold) required their transformations as a means of suppressing their full strength. Their bodies simply couldn't handle all that power, all the time.

Even the scientists comment for Mecha Frieza that in this state he could 'attain power that would be unsustainable in his purely organic form'.

Besides, when you already have enough power that it breaks down your body and terrified just about anyone... there's not many challenges you can undertake that will get you any stronger. So the idea that they don't train makes a lot of sense actually.
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BannedZeshin
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It would be cool for a possessed human to start an intergalactic empire that would stretch across a thousand nations.
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Gosai,May 11 2010
03:20 AM
Eh, sometimes it can be fun. The lack of training thing though could definitely explain the fact that Frieza (and I presume King Cold) required their transformations as a means of suppressing their full strength. Their bodies simply couldn't handle all that power, all the time.

Did you know that a changeling's final form is a step closer to their true self?

Assuming that form 5 (Cooler's Final form) is that highest possible tier, this is the true form of all changelings around.

They merely descend into other forms where they can conserve their power and each form has minimum and maximum limits.

It makes sense as a body with a high energy output at a constant rate is very inefficient. Think of it as why Goku couldn't maintain SSJ 3 24/7, it's a similar idea.

However, in terms of the RPG, using this entire concept would be an impractical game mechanic.


Well that was a nice rant... >.>
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Tehran'he,May 10 2010
06:49 PM
Unfair, much? The saiyans were much less structured than the changelings. They were 'barbarians.' If they were smart enough to have a ranking system, the changelings certainly would have had one, and a more advanced one at that. From what we can glean, all they cared about was heirarchy and social status.

You guys keep calling the saiyan's barbarians and stupid n all this shit. But you seem to forget, who survived the series. And who didnt?
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Piccolo Daimo
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im confused. so, we admit there was a structured changeling system?
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OldTarble
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I think quests are good idea, but then ranks are not. If you were to give the PTO ranks, then every single race would want some kind of ranking system and while that sounds good on paper it would not work through practise. Similar to that of Communism, sounds good, but no.
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Tarble,May 11 2010
09:58 AM
I think quests are good idea, but then ranks are not. If you were to give the PTO ranks, then every single race would want some kind of ranking system and while that sounds good on paper it would not work through practise. Similar to that of Communism, sounds good, but no.

It would work fine. Alex just doesnt wan't to put it in yet for the other factions.
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Kagetane Hiruko
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Saiyan's were surely no barbarians, at least not in the period they worked under Frieza, in the Tuffle period, it is something else. They weren't really barbaric, more like...rough people, but offcourse compared to Frieza they did seem somewhat barbaric and uncivilized. Yet that was only Toriyama's idea on making a perfect villain. Compared to all known villain's that were known in the db serie, Frieza prooved to be a goodmannered, intelligent and tactical person. Which as a concept was fairly new in that time.

Saiyan's did have an empire, yet the empire they talk about is planet Vegeta and a few other smaller planets used for training or rehabilitation, but that small empire was indeed part of the Cold-family's large galactic empire.

And yes, the changelings lost, but that was the canon rule, I mean to say that the series revolved around the saiyans, so it wouldn't make sense that the changelings would be constantly the strongest in the universe. But they had there Long period of glory no doubt. And if it wasn't for that damn Kaioken, Goku would've been wiped out in three seconds. If we ever gave Frieza kaioken like in the canon, I'll give you some numbers.

Goku: 300,000
Goku max kaioken(x20): 6,000,000
Frieza final form 100%: 12,000,000
Goku ssj: 15,000,000

Now imagine Frieza with kaiokenx20: 240,000,000

He would totally wipe out perfect cell.


@Tarble: About communism, true it seemed better on paper than in real life. But the USA has also felt the pain of her own Liberalism (the oposit of comunism) much earlier than the fall of the sovjet. I recall the great depression of 1929-1930. After that Roosevelt, changed the economie to the balanced system which worked better.
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Chill,May 11 2010
10:05 AM
Saiyan's did have an empire, yet the empire they talk about is planet Vegeta and a few other smaller planets used for training or rehabilitation, but that small empire was indeed part of the Cold-family's large galactic empire.

I think of it as:

Changeling Empire = Alexander
Saiyan Empire = Spartans

Alexander had a massive empire, with groups that fought under him, but still controlled their own lands, ie Sparta.
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Kagetane Hiruko
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That's indeed a good comparison.
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Piccolo Daimo
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i was gonna say, capitalism sounds good on paper. in practice, people are douchebags
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Capitalism relies more on trust than anything. The thing is, what happens when you can't trust anyone? Then you get what were in now. Overall I say it's a lil better than communism, but I would want to try it out before I make a valid judgement.

But that's a convo for another time.
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Ra,May 11 2010
08:38 AM
You guys keep calling the saiyan's barbarians and stupid n all this shit. But you seem to forget, who survived the series. And who didnt?

Impressive thought. Too bad that has no basis. Only six known saiyans survived the destruction from Frieza, and all were exceptional fighters. The average saiyans would have been slaughtered by the average changelings.
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Dabura
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Goku was a piss-ant with a stunning powerlevel of 2. Raditz was a very average saiyan, possibly even less pwoerful than average. Nappa was slightly above average. Vegeta was your typical Prince and would-be King. Paragus was saved by his son.

Overal, Broli was the only fighter with any notable strength, but back then he didn't even have that, just an above average birth power.

The fighters truly exceptional at the time, King Vegeta and Bardock, were both killed. (King Vegeta by a single weak blast and Bardock by a Death Ball after taking out most of Frieza's army)

It comes down to the changeling's being too cocky and letting people escape. Frieza made sure Vegeta wasn't on the planet when he destroyed it because he wanted to keep him alive. Nappa was like Vegeta's guard, which was his reason for not dying. Broli was lucky and Paragus was saved by him as well. Frieza was too full of himself to notice Goku, and Cooler saw him, but decided to let him go detailing it was Frieza's affair. Turned out to be the end of his family, because Vegeta would have never become anywhere near strong enough to take down Frieza with Goku hadn't been around to promote him to do so. He would have destroyed Earth and continued doing Frieza's bidding.

He wouldn't have used the dragonballs because he never would have known about them, as Raditz wouldn't have ever caught the conversation between Goku (As Gkou would be dead) and Piccolo about them. It is doubtful Raditz would have even went to Earth alone, as he only went because he told Vegeta and Nappa he could get Goku to come with him.
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Tehran'he,May 11 2010
05:05 PM
Impressive thought. Too bad that has no basis. Only six known saiyans survived the destruction from Frieza, and all were exceptional fighters. The average saiyans would have been slaughtered by the average changelings.

Yet all the Changelings were destroyed utterly by Saiyans.

Besides, this is about the PTO, not the Saiyans vs. Changelings vs. fuck-all.
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Well, fine, then. SAYANZ ROOL, as always. Even though the vast majority of them couldn't find their own tails without looking. But sure. Of course their empire, which we already established to be under the changeling empire, was better/stronger. That was my whole point, really.
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And as a last thing(not an argument, just a statement) about SSJ: I don't know if anyone remembers this far back, but Super Saiyans are sorta supposed to be big shit. There wasn't even one seen for a thousand years. And then, in the space of perhaps fifty, about three or four saiyans manage to create an elite SSJ team ranking up about ten members.

So, what does that say about who was exceptional and who wasn't? Ignoring their birth PL, which really has no point. You don't have to answer, just think about it.
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