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Dragonball Super Discussion; Spoilers contained within
Topic Started: Feb 19 2017, 04:38 PM (3,696 Views)
Whis
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So, I have been keeping up with Super over in Japan and figure since this is a DBZ based web site we might have others doing to same. I wanted to open up a topic for discussion of that and what people think and guesses they have about what is to come. Some open discussion to put your theories out there and just tell people what you thought about an episode or are thinking about the arc/story in general.


Just for full disclosure episode spoilers will more than likely exist, so if you haven't watched, are just watching the English as it releases or are not caught up, read future posts at your own risk!

Now let the discussion begin!
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(I am going to preference my opinions on the Subtitles. I don't know much Japanese so if something is mixed up in translation if I ever bring that up let me know. I do like learning too)


AGAIN REMEMBER SPOILERS COULD EXIST HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





So I wanted to jump in with the Tournament of Power Arc that is going on right now.

Goku has basically with his actions seemingly set up the destruction of 11 of the 12 Universes. The fact that he is probably only alive at this point because Beerus and Whis need him to fight against the other Universes now opens up a great deal of advancement going forward. I am interested to see if Goku finds a way to save the other Universe's or if this is really going to end with just 1 Universe.

This entire arc also is a great introduction of so many new Characters that will be added.

Universe 1,2,3,4,5,8,9,11,12 = Destroyers, Kaioshins, Angels + 10 Warriors each!
Universe 10 = All the above - Gowasu, since we know the guy that caused Zamasu
Universe 6 = They still have 5 new Warriors to introduce as well.

That would be minimum of 134 new Characters! You can assume some are not going to be major players, but still just from what we have seen from the Deadly Trio you can also assume they are going to not just be plan boring characters.

They made it clear in this weeks episode that Omni King hasn't really made up his mind on rules yet, so I think we still might be a little bit away from the tournament actually beginning. In my mind I see the Gohan Fight, Then probably 2 episodes of a Goku Fight and then once both Omni Kings are happy they will have to go assemble teams. For me I am still interested in that as well. We know the teams from the preview, but I think they could have a little fun with selecting them.

Example would be: with so much on the line does the idea of bringing Frieza back under the agreement that if he participates in this tournament and actually helps that he will get another crack at Goku? I think that could be fun, but I also don't see it happening.

How does 17 get involved? I am interested to see how they get him and reintroduce him.

Also how does Beerus explain to Goku that Monaka won't be in the Tournament. If Goku thinks he is the strongest, no way they can keep him from a tournament with such importance. It seems like they are going to have to tell Goku the truth.

Another thing I am interested in is how they are going to balance out the powers. Goku and Vegeta are on an entirely different level than everyone else on Universe 7s team. While it seems power levels aren't nearly a huge of a thing as they used to be, but still in my mind we all know the difference in what those two are capable of. I think they are going to need to have some explanation on how Tien, Roshi, Krillen, 17, 18 and even Piccolo get to the point where they can compete with someone that would also possibly have to compete with Buu, Goku and Vegeta.

I left Gohan out because it looks to me like between his motivation to look strong in front of Pan and protect his loved ones and this match he is having next week he will go back a little to the SSJ 2 vs Cell style of Gohan and not the book worm.




Ok now on to Zeno's Exhibition Matches and what is going on:

First: Buu is not fair in a fight situation like this. He doesn't have enough intelligence to give up in a fight and he recovers from basically every injury unless you actually destroy him down to his molecular level or even further I don't even know. With no Ring Outs either yeah he can't be beat. That Universe 9 guy today had no chance in hell.

Still when Buu's eyes opened enough that you actually saw the eyes and he clenched his fists after Satan got hurt... both those moments I went oh shit he mad now! It was cool to see and a nice flashback to the Buu Saga and when he was Invincible.


Universe 9 Kaioshin: Dude is a dick. He asked for reward when they won, he talked shit and seemed rather odd for a Kaioshin. At the same time the Destroyer seemed rather calm so far, Could be something fun to watch as they mix around roles in other Universes.

Basil: He was entertaining. His laugh was cool and his style in combat was fun as well for me to watch. He basically danced on Buu's head at one point with kicks and that was pretty entertaining.




On the preview for next week and the title it seems Gohan as mentioned above gets back to badass Gohan. I think that will be real cool to see. Part of me died a little watching him get wrecked in a tracksuit against Frieza. Frieza was a bad ass, but still first form and he just completely violated him.

I am going to guess that if Gohan reawakens his fighting spirit same as Krillin did, that his opponent is going to have no chance in hell. No way Gohan goes bad ass and gets beat right after.

That leads me to the Universe 9 team in General: With Buu winning and guessing that Gohan will win as well that leaves only Goku. Just an little guess, but Goku isn't losing in this fight. Not with all the witnesses and both Omni Kings present. That means Universe 9 brings the Strongest and most ruthless Warriors to this and they get rocked by Universe 7. A Universe 7 Team without Vegeta who is assumed to be the 2nd strongest (see later post about if that is the case or not?). They basically are jobbers from the looks of it. Will they fight better if the fights are team based? Are they going to have a period of time to improve? Are rules that are going to be put into place going to help them?


Then we have Toppo and the Pride Troopers. From the character reveals I have heard he seems to be the leader of the Universe 11 Hero's. He is the Goku of Universe 11 and has been scouted to be God himself from what I hear. First he gets to come to this event that only seems to have Kaioshins, Angels and Destroyers (outside of the warriors fighting and Hercule). He seems to be built as a main badass from the look of it. Obviously we don't know yet, but he grabbed a powerful blast from Basil that Buu struggled to deflect with 1 hand and dissipated it with ease that even made Champa acknowledge he was a bad ass. I am going to be interested to see what these guys can do going forward.



Alright that is all I have for now.
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Alex
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I skipped your post but did want to add to the thread that I haven't seen any of it yet as I don't like subbed anime so I am gonna watch the dub, but I also want to wait until a bunch of episodes are out so I can marathon them. I'm looking forward to it!
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Beerus
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So it has been a couple months since I got on this, but figured I would do it again since I have been trying to put all the pieces to the puzzle together. Still containing spoilers if you haven't caught up with Japan episodes don't read. If you are somewhere else in the story than up to date and want to discuss it add a reply with that as well. I will try to answer without giving spoilers away to how it gets to where they are at.


One thing that is clear. Dragonball Super is going over 100 Episodes and that is pretty sweet. With everything they are adding in these other Universe's it seems they are opening up plenty of lore and expansion possibilities. Which leads us right into the Tournament of Power.




Tournament Rules:
The 8 Participating Universe's will get 10 fighters each. Universe 1, 5, 8, 12 are exempt for high Mortal Levels.
No Killing.
No Weapons. Whis has said this also extends to Senzu Beans and things like that.
No Flying outside of the massive arena that The Grand Priest is building.
You are eliminated by being tossed from the ring only.
Team with the most fighters remaining when the time limit is done survives. The others are destroyed only the Angels get to survive from the destroyed.


That seems to be the main points.

So far the Important Players:
Universe 2:
Universe 3:
Universe 4:
Universe 6 (Cabba was told to get more Saiyans. Champa asked if Hit had 9 brothers and sisters)
Universe 7 (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Buu, 17, 18, Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, Roshi)
Universe 9: (Deadly Trio)
Universe 10:
Universe 11 (Pride Troopers. Jiren seems to be the most Built up guy so far. He is going to be the Hit of this Battle Royal probably)




So overall since Universe 7 owned Universe 9 in the Zeno Exhibition Goku has been recruiting. First obviously was Vegeta. Whis just magically pops out Bulla from Bulma's stomach. Interesting when Goku saw Bulla and Vegeta agreed to join he seemed to know that they weren't going to lose the Tournament. Could this be a lead to Vegeta getting another power surge or form or highlight sequence like when he cleared out Universe 6 outside of Hit? Maybe it is just wishful thinking, but Goku seemed more confident at that moment even knowing about Toppo and his threats of Jiren.

Then they recruit 18 and Krillin. We learn here that Krillin is being built as a technical battle master. He can come up with plans to defeat someone seemingly at a moments notice. He even defeats Gohan with his experience and his powered Solar Flare. He was obviously no match for Goku in SS Blue, but then 18 gets involved and Krillin even claims that he has a plan for them to be able to beat Goku if they work together. Then Goku wants to find 17 which leads us to where we are at now in Universe 7. He does run into Buu along the way who is skinny, faster and stronger according to Goku. He also manages to devise a plan with his unique body to ring out Goku. While it is nice to see Buu this improved, Mr. Satan doesn't want Goku to get eliminated that easily. Makes sense. Dende seems to help Goku find 17's location which leads into the next week or 2 episodes.


That is it for Universe 7 so far. In Universe 11 though we got to see some world building as they showed more of the Pride Troopers and Universe 11. Again clearly Universe 11 is being built up as the biggest threat. The Kaioshin and Destroyer are both extremely confident because of the Pride Troopers it would seem. They even watch Goku beat up Toppo who said he probably couldn't beat Goku and they are still that confident. Jiren must be a complete bad ass. Again it is the hype but it is really getting interesting.


And then you have the meeting of the deities. The Kaioshins meet, ignoring Universe 7 to come up with a plan to convince Omni King to reverse his decision. It is brought up just as was said in Universe 7 that it would more than likely just lead to instant destruction or erasure. They then all talk shit about winning and leave. It seems not even the God of Creation are above some shit talking and bragging.

Also the God's of Destruction meet. They want to punish Goku from the sound of it. It is brought up either during this or after (by Vados I believe) that if it wasn't for Goku giving Zeno the idea they wouldn't even have the chance for survival in the tournament and would just be erased. Still they don't like the way Goku acts around the Omni King, but shouldn't they be smart enough to realize if Zeno didn't like it that he would simply erase Goku? They have a bond that even if you didn't know them would seem rather obvious by the way they interact and how much they fear Omni King.


Oh well we will see. I want to do an evaluation eventually of Universe 7's team to go over strengths and weaknesses of the team. I think they actually have a better team than is obvious already. I want to do that before the Battle Royal begins.



That is all for now.
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Tarble
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See, the thing I love about Super overall is that they're bringing a lot of our side characters to the light. I mean, even Yamcha got a whole episode dedicated to him being the MC, even if it was mostly people kicking the everloving shit out of him. He still won!

I love that Krillin is getting a lot of the spotlight on that side of things, showing off his strategy and how he could even best Goku in most cases (if it wasn't for raw power). Then Goku is still learning lessons from everyone under the sun, beating him in tournament scenarios, etc. And Vegeta's character development? Come on now.

Super is lovely for people who love all the characters, and while sometimes it might seem like the Goku and Vegeta show, the recent episodes have shown me they're more than willing to kick back and take time to develop everyone in different directions. Plus some of the fight scenes they got going on these days are chilling. In particular, my favorite is Goku and Trunks vs Zamasu and Black. The animation during that fight was so smooth, it made me want to rewatch it.

As for what's going on now, well, I can't wait to see how the other universes handle what they saw in Goku. At least they're smart enough not to try changing Zeno's mind, but even then.. their lives are on the line.

We'll see what happens.

Sidenote: I hope we get to see more fleshed out stories from the other universes. I want to get invested!
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Uriel
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I'm on ep 75, binge watching on my free trial CR thing. I'll be caught up soon enough. Couple of notes. Beerus and Goku's chemistry is amazing. Whis is pretty fun too. Maybe I'm stupid, but the Frost twist really got me. Vegeta has gotten more play. The Gohan wanting to train after Frieza showed up hasn't panned out so far. Love that 18 called Krillin a pussy. Hit is a pretty cool character. I really enjoy the Black/Zemu saga, and the FT had such a heavy roll. It was very dark, as it should have been. The animation and fighting has been top notch. There has been a fuck ton of filler since FT, though.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Uriel
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Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Krillin, 18, 17, Buu and...Roshi? I guarantee Pikkon is stronger than 18, 17, Krillin and Roshi and smart too. He better be there.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Pikkons dead tho
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Uriel
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Yeah and he isn't canon to begin with. Well they still have one spot open. They should have, I can't believe Roshi is there. Just let the kids join in.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Whis
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It is called the Tournament of power, but it isn't all about raw power. You have to eliminate your opponents from the stage. The idea of Goten and Trunks being in it, while they are more than likely stronger, they fight head on and make mistakes because they lack battle experience.

This goes back to their fight in Martial Arts tournament, the fight they had combined with Super Buu and things like that.

Androids can get stronger (we will see this next week when Goku fights 17). It has been stated before so expect 17 and 18 to be much stronger than last you saw them, but again this tournament is about strategy just as much as raw power. We have seen when 17 and 18 work together that they have all kinds of good combinations.

It is experience and battle smarts that is also why Roshi will be a good idea. The dude knows how to eliminate people from a ring. It is one of the easiest ways to win in the World Martial Arts Tournament. I am slightly surprised that they didn't bring that up as one of the things Mr. Satan could actually teach Buu. Satan is weak, but he is the Champion of the World for a reason.
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Uriel
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Strategy and teamwork is all well and good but the weakest fighter is going to one hit KO Roshi. Power has SOMETHING to do with it. I have problem with the androids. When the weakest opponents are getting Gohan a match, someone who couldn't even stand up to Raditz isn't going to make a difference. It's a wasted spot.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Roshi will eliminate at least 1 person (probably more) and save at least 1 Universe 7 member. He is MASTER Roshi for a reason.
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Uriel
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I agree, but it's still stupid.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Beerus
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Also Super has ignored a good amount of power scaling. You are going to see Android 17 stand up to Goku more than likely in this weeks episode. He won't be as strong, but he will be able to hold his own. Just as Krillin did and just as Android 18 managed to knock away the Blue Kamehameha.

The tournament is about strategy and teamwork. It will be utilized greater with Universe 7 because they all already know one another, have been in fights with or alongside of each other and share similar goals. This is also why Universe 11 is focusing on the Pride Troopers. They are a team so teamwork will be one of the ways they present the greatest challenge to Universe 7.

You can say, "It is stupid". But you can make that argument the same as Trunks suddenly getting false god powers and being able to stand up to Rose and Zamasu and then beating merged by himself. He somehow summoned up enough strength to actually do what Blue Vegetto couldn't do.

Don't worry about 'zomg what is his power level'. Power Levels haven't really been a thing since Freeza anyways.
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Uriel
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FT going ssjb is a bit different than a guy who you would have gotten smashed by level 300 Piccolo fighting against people who went toe to toe with Majin Buu and Gohan. Why not put Satan in it? If powers don't matter he should be able to handle the three wolf guys.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Beerus
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Satan has no knowledge of Ki Manipulation. Master Roshi is the creator of Kamehameha. Master Roshi also is much stronger than he was in Dragonball or Dragonball Z when he had a scouter used on him. Remember his bulk up form. Remember him fighting off hordes of the freeza force?

Powers do matter. Just not zomg power level. Roshi won't eliminate Hit or Jiren or someone like that. But none of the Universes are going to have 10 Goku's running around.

Look at Universe 6 in the Tournament against 7. They had tricks. Botamo had his body that was immune to damage pretty much. Goku just had to King Hippo his ass grab his legs and throw him out. Frost was a dirty Cheater, but his power was Frieza on Namek. Vegeta KO'd him with 1 SSJ Punch. Magetta can't even fly. He seems basically immune to damage as well unless insulted. Vegeta handles him fairly easy and if the arena hadn't be shrunk and boxed in by Vados he would have beaten him even easier. Cabba couldn't even Super Saiyan until Vegeta beat it out of him and then he got 1 shot as well. Now Hit was another monster all together.

But in reality of power Levels from what we have seen int he show Piccolo could have beat anyone not named Hit as well. When Piccolo fused with Kami he became strong enough to fight Android 17 evenly and Imperfect Cell before he absorbed another town. This was far beyond Frieza who out of Cabba after he transformed is greater than anyone on Universe 6.

Yes in scale of Power Level to Early Dragonball Z (when power levels became a thing) In theory Goku and Vegeta could power up and the surge of energy might be enough to eliminate people. They might have some weaker people get eliminated that way, but I doubt that.

Gohan also owned his opponent. If he hadn't been blinded and poisoned by the tactic and strategy that was used against him it wouldn't have been a fight. Buu also owned his opponent. Mostly because if you can't kill someone or ring them out Buu is unbeatable in this format because his body always regenerates.

Also Trunks didn't go Blue. He dyed his fucking hair and went False God or maybe even Broli Super Saiyan.


At the end of the day it is an animated series and not reality so while we can debate over and over again it is what it is. Maybe Goten and Trunks would have been fun to see, but they are the only other options Universe 7 has since Supreme Kai sucks at his job and knows of no other strong people in the entire Universe. Be happy you get to see old favorites get some run. Roshi will be fun in the tournament and he will probably get eliminated rather early, but who knows.

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Uriel
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Can't argue with that. :)
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Uriel
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So Goku and 17 fuck up the world's ecosystem lol.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Whis
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What?
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Uriel
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Did you see the episode? I'm assuming they didn't take all the alien animals to their respective planets and just let them three (in orderly fashion, mind you lol) onto 17's island.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Uriel
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Btw, can't wait for the tournament so I can see Roshi stand toe to toe with the 10 strongest fighters in each universe. Because his master strategy.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Vlad
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17 still the master of cool, one of the best fights in z. no stamina drain, that shield technique, and a decent blend of power and situational awareness as shown in his episodes. A well rounded member I think, glad to see that, may be cool to see 17 and 18 team up against a tough warrior and show their (in this case not so because rules) lethal teamwork.

Roshi to will be interesting and I agree he is tactical and highly skilled with many techniques, would not surprise me if we learned he has fought a fair number of greater powers before and won, skill and experience to the table, Tien and (perhaps as it would be interesting and really speak for the change in time) Piccolo would likely be willing to aid if he gets over his head and likely be up for tactical approaches with the master making them a tough team to beat brain and brawn for all three.

Gohan its a nice thing to see him at least come back as a strong reserve unit, likely still to put family and furthering future inverse above fighting but at least now may renew that gym membership so to speak. and if he teams up with Roshi combining brawn with brain bet a good many would find that a hard tag team to overcome.

the survival arch will be quite the spectacular display and a fine coming together for characters who have gotten so little spot light in these past years.



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Uriel
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Yeah, I'd love to see Roshi Kamehameha, after image or evil contai..nope, no weapons. Where was all the skill when Raditz took Gohan? Or when Vegeta and Nappa were kicked the Z fighter's asses? The Androids? Cell? Surely his tactics and high skills with many techniques could have been to some help then.

But yes, I'm glad they've boosted all the other members up so they can actually do something. I was sick of the Goku and Goku show with guest appearances by Vegeta.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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Beerus
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Galactic Patrol took the animals home. Goku and 17 didn't have to do any of that shit.

You obviously have a hard on for Roshi. It is cool; he normally has a hard on too.
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Uriel
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I'm sure he does ;) And oh, derp. I remember the GP being there but I must have been distracted at that part. Thanks for clearing that up, Bee Bee.
Whis | Beerus - Today at 12:14 PM
I'm not sure I would have ever said this, but I kinda agree with the Birdman
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