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Rubic's Vitality Drain Reffing System; Version 22
Topic Started: May 29 2017, 01:13 PM (2,098 Views)
Lilim
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A lot of folks have been asking me about the 'damage system' (it's not a damage system, per se, it's a vitality drain system) that I have been using for these fights I have been reffing. Namely, the one used for Tarble v A16, Jarell v HRRS, and Whis v Vegeta. The system has undergone multiple revisions (currently version 22), and will continue to be evaluated and modified as needed in order to accomplish something akin to a reasonable and balanced system.

Transparency breeds refinement and innovation, and as such, I wish to finally present what I have been developing as a Vitality Drain system this last year or so. Bear in mind, there's a lot of math involved, obviously, so if anything is confusing to you or needs explanation, please post here with your questions, concerns, suggestions, etc.


PRIMARY TERMS:

Character Level (represented formulaic as C0 (Czero, or C-sub-zero)) - The level of your character (not power level). These are gained by getting enough EXP from threads in order to level up your character. These give you passives as time goes on.

Power Level (represented formulaic as P0 (Pzero, or P-sub-zero)) - The overall stats of your character. Power level is the sum of Strength, Toughness, Vitality, Stamina, and Ki (which is also the sum of Strength, Toughness, Vitality, and Stamina).

Modified Character Level (represented formulaic as C1 (C-One, or C-sub-one)) - Just as Power Levels can be modified by not powering up (all characters start off at 75% power at the beginning of a battle, and suppression can lower it further), these factors are also taken into account for your character level. Whatever % of your power level you are at, that will dictate what your modified character level is--however, unlike Power Level, character level cannot exceed your base character level. The highest of all participating Modified Character Levels is used to modify B0 (see below), represented as C1P (C-One-P, or C-sub-one-Prime), HOWEVER, if one side of the battle is 25% or more weaker than the other side, then the C1 used to determine Vitality Drain is the average of all participating C1 (represented formulaic as C2 (C-two, or C-sub-two), rather than the highest.

Base Drain Value (represented formulaic as B0 (Bzero)) - All attacks have a 'base' drain value, considered to be 'appropriate' for two combatants each at a PL of 5000 and a character level of 1. They are listed below:

Quick Attack - 1 Point (each)
Special Attack - 2 Points
Weapon Attack - 5 Points
Damage Rating 1 - 4 points
Damage Rating 2 - 8 points
Damage Rating 3 - 16 points
Damage Rating 4 - 32 points
Damage Rating 5 - 64 points
Damage Rating 6 - 128 points
Damage Rating 7 - 256 points
Damage Rating 8 - 512 points
Damage Rating 9 - 1024 points
Damage Rating 10 - 2048 points
Damage Rating 11 - 4096 points
Damage Rating 12 - 8192 points
etc...

Enhancer - Anything that increases the damage (and drain) of an attack. Items, weapons, equipment, passive abilities, etc. All enhancements are handled step-by-step multiplicative, not additive, meaning if you have an item that increases physical damage from 5%, a weapon that increases physical damage by 10%, and a passive technique that increases damage by 10%, these are not added together into 25% enhancement, but rather, the drain is increased by 5% first, then by 10%, then by another 10%. Because they are multiplicative, it does not matter the order in which they are implemented into the formulae.

***Special Note: If the attacker's strength during a physical attack is higher than the opponent's toughness, the attack gains a bonus % to drain equal to the following:

(Attacker's Strength - Defender's Toughness) / defender's Toughness = decimal. This decimal is converted into a % and then incorporated in as its own Enhancement.

***Special Note: Each consecutive hit from physical combos increases the drain of the next physical attack by 10%. For example, if an attacker hits their opponent with 20 Quick attacks, the first hit does normal damage, the second deals 10% more drain, the third hit deals 20% more drain, etc. These are calculated into the B0, rather than as an enhancer due to its incremental nature and behavior.

***Special Note: Grapples add +50% drain to all attacks, and the consecutive hit bonus for physical attacks does not reset until the grapple ends.

***Special Note: When a combatant uses a Ki attack, they must calculate their Power Level for that attack. This is compared to the defender's Power Level + Toughness. If the attacker's Power Level is higher than the Defender's Power Level + Toughness, it gains a bonus % to drain equal to the following:

(Attacker's PL - Defender's (PL+Toughness)) / Defender's (PL+Toughness) = decimal. This decimal is converted into a % and then incorporated in as its own Enhancement.

***Special Note: Hybrid Attacks gain bonuses to their drain value from EITHER Strength vs Toughness OR PL vs PL+Toughness, whichever is higher (Not Both)

Mitigation - Anything that can reduce the damage (and drain) of an attack. Blocks, dodges, partial dodges, techniques, items, equipment, etc. All mitigation is handled step-by-step multiplicative, not additive, meaning if you have an item that reduces damage by 5%, an armor that reduces damage by 10%, and a technique that reduces damage by 10%, these are not added together into 25% mitigation, but rather, the damage is reduced by 5% first, then by 10%, then again by 10%. Because they are multiplicative, it does not matter the order in which they are implemented into the formulae.

***Special Note: When the defender counters a physical attack, the counter attack gains a boost to its drain value equal to double the highest bonus percentile from consecutive physical combo hits against the defender. For example, if the defender has taken 20 quick attacks but counters the 21st, ALL attacks involved with the counter gain +190% additional drain (20 hit combo bonus, doubled). (This is also referred to as a combo breaker). This bonus is factored into B0, rather than as an enhancer, due to its impromptu nature.

***Special Note: Standard block actions against Non-Weapon Physical Combos are 10% more effective than block actions against other attacks.

CALCULATING VITALITY DRAIN

When a character makes an attack, the vitality drain of that attack is calculated as such:

B0 * (C1P OR C2) * enhancer1 * enhancer2 * enhancer3 (etc) * mitigation1 * mitigation2 * mitigation3 (etc)

Whatever value this formula results is deducted from the defender's current Vitality, reducing PL as would deducting stamina from using techniques or abilities. Note that losing Vitality does not reduce Ki, just like losing Stamina does not reduce Ki.

KNOCK-OUT CONDITIONS

When a character's Vitality reaches 0, they effective enter a weakened state. Any further Vitality Drain reduces ALL other stats by that amount (including Ki). This additional drain is known as OVERFLOW. When the Overflow exceeds that character's current DETERMINATION, they fall unconscious. Death is only achieved by reducing all of a character's stats to 0 (or if slain at the conclusion of a battle).

A character's DETERMINATION can be modified from it's base by having allies--the ally with the highest CHARISMA adds their charisma value to their allies' Determination for this purpose ONLY (so no, having someone with high Charisma does not grant you additional abilities from having high Determination values), as it represents someone's leadership inspiring you to push yourself beyond your normal limits. Having an ally with high charisma can be boon to your side in terms of battlefield endurance, but it also is a large target for your opponents, as this bonus only applies if the character providing it is conscious. If that character is knocked unconscious, the bonus is revoked and then applied again based off of the highest Charisma of those still conscious--this represents that moment of sinking morale when a leader or important ally is defeated.

*** Special Note: If a team of four people are fighting, and the ally with the highest charisma is knocked unconscious, if the absence of that bonus would cause others to go unconscious, they do so--THEN the person with the highest charisma applies their bonus to those still conscious as they take a moment to assert their own leadership. Some warriors lose the will to fight if their leader goes down, even in the presence of another.

If anything seems missing or not-very-well-explained, feel free to point them out. lemme know what you all think.
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Chaos
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This is fantastic.

*expect Bass to ref all future fights.*
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Tarble
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Openly saying I'm using this battle system when I ref for battles. Basso and I have talked about this system for months and I love it.
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Zyren
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I have to say, this is a big help to me, and lets me understand a bit of the system (and what Ref's go through). Thank you for posting it!

Also, I just have to add one thing.

KA-KA-KA-KOOOOOOOOMBBBBBBBOOOOO BREAKER!

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Whis
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I don't really want to look over all that math right now, but if it is the same as was used in my fight with Vegeta the damage needs to be upped. Just my opinion.
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Lilim
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It has been modified, yes. The damage multiplier has been upped from the version I used for your fight (Version 14 or 15, I forget) to the highest Modified Character Level among participating fighters (instead of the lowest), and I followed your advice for multiple physical hits increasing in damage (that combo system Zyren is referring to).

It should speed things up a bit more overall, without it becoming too fast.
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Rem
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I dunno if this is the same thing you've been using, but tbh, every battle of mine you've ever reffed dragged on forever cuz the damage was too low.

no hate, just sayin.
[align=center]<center><DIV id="scroll3" style="width:490; height:100; overflow:auto; border: 2px solid; text-align: center; vertical-align: text-bottom; background-image:url('http://puu.sh/juatU/2b02a867a8.jpg'); font-weight:bold; color:darkblue">
<br><SELECT style="background-color: #83F52C; color: #000000; font-family: Lucida Calligraphy; font-size: 14px; width: 200px; "><br /><OPTION>Rem</OPTION><br /><OPTION>"NO CHANCE!"</OPTION><br /></div><br /><OPTION>Power Level: 707,000</OPTION></div>
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Chaos
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HIT HARDER SCRUBS

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Rem
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Let's bring yume back. He sure want shy with Damage tbh

Chaos know tbh
[align=center]<center><DIV id="scroll3" style="width:490; height:100; overflow:auto; border: 2px solid; text-align: center; vertical-align: text-bottom; background-image:url('http://puu.sh/juatU/2b02a867a8.jpg'); font-weight:bold; color:darkblue">
<br><SELECT style="background-color: #83F52C; color: #000000; font-family: Lucida Calligraphy; font-size: 14px; width: 200px; "><br /><OPTION>Rem</OPTION><br /><OPTION>"NO CHANCE!"</OPTION><br /></div><br /><OPTION>Power Level: 707,000</OPTION></div>
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Daji
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Rem,Jun 8 2017
09:35 PM
I dunno if this is the same thing you've been using, but tbh, every battle of mine you've ever reffed dragged on forever cuz the damage was too low.

no hate, just sayin.

This version of my Vitality Drain system is vastly different than what I used for your previous fights, except for A16 v Tarble. If I recall correctly, that was version 3 or 4, which I felt was probably a bit TOO much damage in such short notice.
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Raiosu Kirishi
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How does this apply PL differences to the formula? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere, so I'm concerned by that.
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Daji
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Raiosu Kirishi,Jun 9 2017
06:22 PM
How does this apply PL differences to the formula? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere, so I'm concerned by that.

It doesn't, Not really. The only time PL factors in is when determining whether the highest Modified Character Level is used or the average of all participating Modified Character Levels. It's designed to help balance between overall experience (Character Level) against Power Level. Now, overall stats matter more than raw power level. Your strength adds more damage to physicals, having higher stamina actually matters, And now Vitality actually matters.
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Lilim
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FYI, this was updated to version 20 shortly before the Beerus v Chaos and Trunks v Whis fights started, so no worries there. Additions:

***Special Note: When a single opponent outmatches another by at least 10x their power level, drain against the weaker opponent is doubled, and this bonus is listed as a normal enhancer.
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Lilim
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I've been getting some requests for a spreadsheet version of this system that automates things. I unfortunately don't have the programs on my computer necessary to do so, but once again, people are free to use this system if they would like--feedback is always appreciated. Bear in mind that if someone else does make a sheet for this system, I'd have to vet it before officially supporting the document.
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Korra
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what...did someone say they need a spread sheet made while korra has two weeks of sitting around!!???

:P
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Korra
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What am i missing math wise here

Quick Attack - 1 Point (each)
Special Attack - 2 Points
Weapon Attack - 3 Points
Damage Rating 1 - 4 points
Damage Rating 2 - 8 points
Damage Rating 3 - 16 points
Damage Rating 4 - 32 points
Damage Rating 5 - 64 points
Damage Rating 6 - 128 points
Damage Rating 7 - 256 points
Damage Rating 8 - 512 points
Damage Rating 9 - 1024 points
Damage Rating 10 - 2048 points
Damage Rating 11 - 4096 points
Damage Rating 12 - 8192 points
etc...

So i was thinking of the DR 1 = 4 DR 2 = 8, which makes sense since each level of DR is twice the level before it. How does halving it work? so i thought a DR 0.5 would be 2, and if i double that i would get 1.5. Here is the problem i ran into. if i double 2, i get 4, which is the value of DR 1. So DR 1 and DR 1.5 are the same value.

Does this make sense cuz i'm kind of like hmmm...


edit
in the end i thought this made the most sense. Let me know if i'm off or if this is a non issue haha

Damage Rating 1 - 4
Damage Rating 1.5 - 6
Damage Rating 2 - 8
Damage Rating 2.5 - 12
Damage Rating 3 - 16
Damage Rating 3.5 - 24
Damage Rating 4 - 32
Damage Rating 4.5 - 48
Damage Rating 5 - 64
Damage Rating 5.5 - 96
Damage Rating 6 - 128
Damage Rating 6.5 - 192
Damage Rating 7 - 256
Damage Rating 7.5 - 384
Damage Rating 8 - 512
Damage Rating 8.5 - 768
Damage Rating 9 - 1,024
Damage Rating 9.5 - 1,536
Damage Rating 10 - 2,048
Damage Rating 10.5 - 3,072
Damage Rating 11 - 4,096
Damage Rating 11.5 - 6,144
Damage Rating 12 - 8,192
Damage Rating 12.5 - 12,288
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Lilim
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Sorry for the late reply. Yeah, that's basically how it would work.
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Lilim
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Due to the awesome data Im getting from all the Quasar battles, Ill be doing some revisions on this system once they conclude. Notable upcoming changes:

- Ki attacks gain bonus drain from Attacker's PL vs Defender's PL + Toughness.
- Physical attacks that are blocked will see a slight increase in mitigation (usually 40% - 60%, increasing to 50% - 70%)
- Physical attack drain being increased for consecutive hits from 5% to 10%
- Counter Attack bonus will double.
- Grapple status will add +50% drain to all attacks.
- Specifying that hybrids get a bonus from strength vs toughness OR PL vs PL + Toughness (whichever is higher, not both).
- Possibly removing drain bonus based off of PL vs foe power level that doubles damage. Existing mechanics and changes should compensate.
- Possible New Mechanic: Taking 3 or more attacks without a defense will increase your next attack by +25% drain per attack taken. This is based off of actions, and does not apply to physical combos unless those combos contained more than 2 quick attacks or 1 special attack.
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Lilim
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Please make sure to review the changes I posted and discuss/critique.
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Towa
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I think the three or more attacks without a defense making the next attack more potent is better than an automatic stun.

If you look at boxing and other combat sports like MMA, taking a couple of hits doesn't stun a person, if anything it makes them more proactive in guarding up because that shit starts to hurt.
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Daji
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Eski,Sep 2 2017
03:00 PM
I think the three or more attacks without a defense making the next attack more potent is better than an automatic stun.

If you look at boxing and other combat sports like MMA, taking a couple of hits doesn't stun a person, if anything it makes them more proactive in guarding up because that shit starts to hurt.

Its more to dissuade taking a bunch of physicals/fundamentals just to swing the action advantage, but if its a big deal (and I understand your reasoning, which is sound) I can remove it and keep the drain buff. Increasing drain for consecutive hits will probably be enough to compensate anyway.
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Towa
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To that end, it's a good idea. Maybe have an RP qualifier. If they get lazy with the RP as well as the use of actions they get the stun.
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Daji
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Eski,Sep 3 2017
01:31 AM
To that end, it's a good idea. Maybe have an RP qualifier. If they get lazy with the RP as well as the use of actions they get the stun.

I went ahead and slept on it, and I think we will hold that back for now. I want to implement the other changes and see how that does before adding stuns to things.
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Lilim
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I went ahead and modified a few of the proposed changes, feel free to look them over:

Quote:
 
- Ki attacks gain bonus drain from Attacker's PL vs Defender's PL + Toughness.
- Physical attacks that are blocked will see a slight increase in mitigation (usually 40% - 60%, increasing to 50% - 70%)
- Physical attack drain being increased for consecutive hits from 5% to 10%
- Counter Attack bonus will double.
- Grapple status will add +50% drain to all attacks.
- Specifying that hybrids get a bonus from strength vs toughness OR PL vs PL + Toughness (whichever is higher, not both).
- Possibly removing drain bonus based off of PL vs foe power level that doubles damage. Existing mechanics and changes should compensate.
- Possible New Mechanic: Taking 3 or more attacks without a defense will increase your next attack by +25% drain per attack taken. This is based off of actions, and does not apply to physical combos unless those combos contained more than 2 quick attacks or 1 special attack or 1 weapon attack.
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Dabura
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Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Currently on the site, people only really look at PL and speed as a result of speed being the only thing with actual quotable benefits (such as getting double hits in your actions or more speed teleports etcetera). Stamina is ignored because of Ki cost reduction and Ki Mastery 3. Str, tou, and vit are mostly there to buff up your PL. So I like that your system tries to alleviate this problem!

2. Your drain values for DR follow the actual site guidelines (techniques doubling in DR for each point you go up, essentially being powers of 2). I think this is great, but I also fear that with Ki cost reduction (you can lower a skill's cost by up to 7% Ki if you master it and reach 5% reduction) we might eventually get to a point where people fill their skillsets with skills that cost between 1-4% Ki cost and as a result of Ki Mastery 3, end up costing them barely anything. Not a problem now, but it may be one in the future. Bottom line is that a DR3 is already 5x more powerful than a regular swing of your weapon, and it's not hard to get techs into meaningless Ki cost territory. I'm not sure what the solution is, because if you make regular combos stronger then you also make DR1 and DR2 techs irrelevant.

3. There is a discrepancy in physical attacks and weapons attacks. If your speed is more than double your opponent's, regular combos are 1pt stronger per action(4). Otherwise, weapon attacks are 1pt stronger per action (3). This is assuming the baseline is 2pts of drain per action.
It is something I noticed, but I happen to like it. Doesn't need changing. It's just an extra layer of depth on how important speed is to your character depending on if you're weapon or fisticuffs.

4. You did a great job of making vitality something worthwhile with this, but I don't like how strength and toughness only need to be higher than your opponent's inverse and that's where their importance ends.

Quote:
 
***Special Note: If the attacker's strength during a physical attack is higher than the opponent's toughness, the attack gains a bonus % to drain equal to the following:

(Attacker's Strength - Defender's Toughness) / defender's Toughness = decimal. This decimal is converted into a % and then incorporated in as its own Enhancement.


It's better than the nothing we currently have, but as I said it's a shame that these two stats, and toughness especially, are good if they're higher than your opponent's and not relevant otherwise.

All in all I think your system's great, these are just some minor observations/nitpickings.
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