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Post by Goku Jr on Jun 11, 2020 22:48:35 GMT -5
If I see another battle open with
1) Kaksudan
2) Rapid Ion Beam
3) Renzoku Energy Dan
4) Renzoku Energy Dan
5) Bankoku Bitsu Kuri Shiyou
ZZ) Dragon Dive
Or watever nonsense I'm gone Rick Roll all of you.
But for real, this Ki spam is getting out of control right now and we are promoting cookie cutter battle styles.
We can discuss reverting barrier back (my preference) or reworking it as long as it's not a proactive use.
Any and all suggestions are welcomed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 23:24:51 GMT -5
Lol I mean. You play bro?
*sits down and waits for conversation to start.*
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Post by Kale on Jun 11, 2020 23:26:28 GMT -5
Yeah, as someone who has been on this site for years, I can see the clear meta of players using the potent ki cost mitigation and damage buffs to maximize their output as well as a reliance on an abundance of defensive options to survive being on the other end of that shit. I understand that it is in greater efforts to cut down on the large amount of defensive options, but as it stands now lacking the option to use a barrier as a direct defense promotes heavy use of energy attacks.
I will give them that adding a DR cap and adjusting how DR damage is calculating does ameliorate that too a degree, but that doesn't but that is lacking in regards to being a deterrent from relying on constant use of energy attacks, because people can still get away with firing off high DR techniques without much cost so the output with all the drain mitigation allows is worth it and its is seen in how people battle.
When you remove barrier, what's the answer to someone starting their post with a volley of energy based attacks and hybrids? You get the 1 block that does 75% damage reduction. That helps with one of the attacks, then you're also burning limited defensive techs as well as actions to survive the onslaught, opening the door to situations where people may feel the need to take the majority of things or spending the majority defending to survive and that allows the attacker to keep the pressure up.
Also I'd like to touch on hybrids. Barrier and Body shield were solid defenses against them, since you could stop partial damage with either, and stack with blocks. What is someone suppose to do when someone is throwing multiple seraphin punches or using Dragon Dive? There is flame shield, but flame shield won't reduce the damage you take yourself and its only has three uses under normal circumstances.
Lastly, movesets and character builds in general take resources and time to develop. Barrier and Body shield need slots committed to them and people who had them wanted to be able to block an incoming ki attack directly. Honestly, such a change should have been treated with more transparency prior, with more discussion among staff and even to the general player base. Something like that changes a mechanic on a fundamental level and affects many players shouldn't just be changed without careful consideration with the opinions of other staff and the general player base in mind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 23:30:52 GMT -5
Barrier is a technique that, when used reactively, would allow you a proper defense against a hail of ki attacks that effectively allowed you to switch up the rhythm. Against an action oppressive meta, something that everyone has gone on record saying we are within, having something that can effectively defend against a few attacks without having to give up so many actions to do so. Where the rhythm would normally switch up was when someone would charge an action or use a multi-action technique. You could choose to block or dodge that technique, then it would grant you an action that they lost charging it and return things in your favor.
The Barrier that we currently have does not promote that. What it promotes is trying to prevent someone from doing something. For example, if I were to proactively use Barrier at the end of my post, all that tells my opponent is that they just need to pepper me with some small energy blasts. I can't use Barrier to defend myself from hard hitting techs anymore, my Barrier is effectively useless because anyone who has a shred of intelligence will be able to whittle it down in its current form. You went from what could be argued to be an overtuned power up slot to something that shouldn't be on anyone's tech list in the current meta.
Like I said, if that is something that can fit into your corner of the world with your new battle system, that's fine. But that's not something that fits into what we have at this exact moment.
The example I cite a lot is how defensive veils work in video games, namely RPGs. More often than not, you'd find proactive use of Barrier in those games. That's fine and dandy, but most of these games also have telegraphs where you can tell what the enemy is going to do. Think of Final Fantasy where the technique name usually shows up above the enemy's head before they cast an attack: that's when you want to use your barrier, right? Well, it doesn't translate that well to the current system.
The current system is more akin to how PVP works in an MMO. You have the ability to attack, but Barriers in MMOs are usually used as either:
Veils that can be spammed to bolster defensive stats. Things that are casted by dedicated healer types. Or just not showing up on tech lists at all because who the FUCK would waste a barrier on something players can actively react to and simply either wait out or whittle down with low cost attacks?
Reverting Barrier is a step in the right direction toward, well, not letting this stupid ki spam meta be a thing. In the past two fights I've seen second wave being used TWICE in the same turn, spam after spam, Double Zanzoken and Second Wave all in one shot, all in an attempt to overwhelm an opponent that can't utilize any form of multi-action high grade defense. It's turned into the 'who has the better sword' instead of a balance between the sword and the shield, and it's a really stupid meta to be in.
Some suggestions for hotfixes that might also help with this:
- Reduce Second Wave to one usage per post - Make it to where blocks allow you to block both attacks in a second wave (if desired, dodges will still cost two actions, promoting defense right?) - Make Double Zanzoken follow action limitations and not have you surpass seven in the same way Arlian Hive doesn't allow you to (action economy is king, why promote breaking the limit with anything?)
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Post by Lilim on Jun 12, 2020 5:48:26 GMT -5
This is just me on my way to work and reading things over--I will likely have more time to contribute to the conversation over the weekend. Some initial thoughts that come to mind:
- Might have Reversal work on both halves of Second Wave, or alternatively, have reversal not require an action. Don't do both, please, we don't want to over buff that. - There probably needs to be one or two more means of adequately defending against multiple attacks (not complete negation) with a single action so that the initial aggressor isnt always the default winner due to constant offensive pressure. Effectively, there needs to be an ability to swing the action advantage back to the defense's favor without such a high damage tax. - Martial Arts database might need a slight buff. We don't want it to completely negate Fighting Styles, but it probably needs to be more than just 'I negate second wave.' - I feel like it's counter-intuitive to nerf things when not done in tandem with a much-wider array of battle changes. I understand that the changes we got are part of a larger spectrum of planned changes, but when we know the rules are being changed piecemeal, that's not an encouragement to participate in battles, that's a reason to not engage in them until all the changes are finally implemented. This is why we've always tried to buff things instead, rather than nerf anything but the most extreme cases. - One of the underlying issues with the site in general is exclusivity. It's far too easy to build a character that picks up all the 'good' and 'OP' techniques without access being restricted. Over the years, we've done our best to make alignments feel unique, but theres far too much access to both offensive and defensive utilities open to all. The only example we see are weapon techniques being barred from Fisticuff users, but anything fisticuffs has access to can be picked up by weapon users. We might need to see about doing more of that. For example, we might make Kiai and Deflect exclusive to Fisticuffs, as Weapon users have their own defensive techs, but that might be too extreme of a change--its just an example.
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Post by Gohan on Jun 12, 2020 15:22:03 GMT -5
I realize that I've only just come back and a lot of my opinions may be overshadowed by people who battle more, but as someone looking to get back into it for real, I figured I'd share some ideas.
- Proactive defenses seem pretty much useless. When I first saw the changes to barrier/body shield I figured it wasn't that bad, since you could bait certain types of attacks and impose your own fighting style if you ever caught a small break in the action. However, the fact that charges of the barrier/body shield disappear even if you don't get hit ruins this effect. Any half-intelligent opponent would just spam low cost attacks or hybrids to negate the effects of a barrier. If you could use barrier and still dodge low-power tech spam without diminishing your charges, then I think that would be the ideal form of proactive defensive techs.
- Alternatively, barrier/body shield could last for your entire next post with a flat damage reduction on all energy attacks that hit you. So instead of being 90%, 50%, 25% it could be a flat 40-45% for the entire next post. That way, it's still slightly less effective than normal blocking, but you keep up action economy with your opponent and can choose to react to higher damaging techs that would still hurt even with the reduction from barrier.
- There are too many ways of negating the adverse effects of using a lot of ki attacks. Ki mastery 3 basically kills stamina drain, and the tactical fighting style plus items like ki well make it so you can easily use like 200% ki's worth in techniques in a fight, if not more. Since the major advantage of physical combos is that they don't cost ki, there's almost no reason to use them since ki attacks (ironically) also don't seem to cost you anything anymore.
- Second wave is problematic, and compounds the issues of point 2. When you can double your action economy and pump out two DR 4-5 techs in one action, and do it twice in one post... that's gross. I agree with Tarble's idea of making it usable once per post, but think we can do more with it. Maybe second wave can ignore ki cost reduction, so you'd *actually* have to spend the 20% to get full usage out of the ability.
- Partial dodges/blocks could be a thing again. If you could do two partial blocks in an action with reduced effectiveness for each one, you'd have a much better way to mitigate damage while also still having the potential to use an item, transform, or attack. It'd at least give a fighting chance to someone who's losing in # of actions. That being said, I recognize that this is an ambitious idea and is almost definitely prone to abuse in ways I haven't thought of yet.
Those are my thoughts on things, for whatever they're worth.
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Mira
One Percenter
Posts: 2,066
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Post by Mira on Jun 12, 2020 16:30:04 GMT -5
So we are not getting anywhere with just saying this is a problem this is a problem this is a problem. What are solutions? Assume Barrier stays the same and don't think about it. What solutions do people have in mind or is it just bitching? I'm legit in mod chat right now just typing any stupid thing that comes to my mind. Don't feel bad if your idea is stupid, share it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 17:39:21 GMT -5
So like Hit said, let's assume Barrier never gets changed. These are some things I think would be healthy for the game in terms of rulings or fixes.. or maybe just general defensive upgrades: - One block can automatically defend against the entirety of the Second Wave usage.-- I often see someone somewhere saying that the new '75% reduced damage on first block' was introduced as a give and take for Barrier's neutering. A good step in the right direction, but if you really want blocks to be more impactful in today's meta, they need to be able to do more. I think being able to nullify two actions worth of techniques with one block is a way to nullify it. If you dodge, you'd still have to take an action each to dodge each attack, so the drawback to completely avoiding damage is taking more actions to do so. If you want to grin and bear it with a block, you're rewarded in terms of action economy AND take reduced damage thanks to your block. - Second Wave Changes: Only usable once per post, twice per battle. Cannot be used in tandem with other action increasing methods such as Energizer or Double Zanzoken.-- Part of what makes Second Wave work so deeply against the current meta is because of its current state flourishing well with the action economy issue we've had for ten years now. Being able to use it both times in one turn is something I've seen as a tactic to go in tandem with a jump and force someone to take a lot of actions they simply cannot get the resources to defend against. Entering into a meta where we can cheese people just by dogpiling and firing off a shitload of actions is a very real one, and even if you want to say you'll have honor, the fact that it is possible is a very real issue. Alongside this, Second Wave shouldn't be usable when another action increasing method is in play for obvious reasons. You can see the theme I'm going with in these suggestions: stop surpassing action cap by these stupid means. - Double Zanzoken Changes: Cannot surpass the normal 7 action cap by any means.-- When we were in the meta where speed was king and gave you all the actions in the world against your opponent, it was probably some of the worst times we had. Not only was there a power gap, but you couldn't even defend against everything every turn. Even if you tried your best to block with all of your actions, you were always going to take guaranteed damage. That's what is happening again, just by different means. Double Zanzoken is just a start to what I'd like to see changed to reduce this action abuse shit we're in, but ideally nothing should be taking you over 7 actions to put everyone on the same playing field, even when jumps are taken into account. I'd like to point your attention to Arlian Hive if you have an issue with this. I was told in the past it didn't surpass action cap. Why should Double Zanzoken get a pass? - Reversal Changes: Allow Reversal to work on both halves of the Second Wave. (From Lilim)-- In the same way that blocking for both actions of a Second Wave tech would cost one action, Reversal could be a very real defensive technique against this. It would make the Fighting Style a little more relevant (since if you're not using Tactical as your primary, lol what the hell are you doing in this meta?). - The entire removal of Tactical.-- This is easily the most nuclear option, but I do see it as a valid one. Tactical in general is the must-have fighting style and for good reason. It gives you a free 3% ki cost reduction, +0.5 DR to ki and hybrid techs, +20% ki at ANY time for no action and the ability to suddenly power up one of your techs for a measly 5% ki someone could easily have stored up thanks to the reduction? Anyone who isn't using this Fighting Style is either extremely dedicated to being IC with their build or just doesn't battle or have any intention to. I think removing it and introducing something new entirely would probably be the best option (alongside the Double Zanzoken changes), but that's also the least likely thing that'll happen? This is a topic I'd like to go further into, so if you're interested in my version of Tactical, just read below: Level 5: Momentum - If a technique is used twice in a row, reduces the cost of the second cast by -3% ki. Can only be used three times per battle, once per turn.
Level 10: Empowerment - Uses an action to increase a technique's DR by +1 and ki cost by 5%. Opponent must take two actions to dodge it, but only one to block it. Cannot be used with undodgables. Adheres to Advanced cap rule.
Level 15: Moderate Blow - Can be used on any technique to reduce its ki cost by 5%, but also reduces its DR by 1. Can only be used twice per battle, once per turn.
Level 20: Newfound Surge - Allows you to use your Power Up again for half of the ki restoration. Extra effects do not stack. Usable once per battle.
Level 50: Basic Strides - Allows you to stack two fundamental attacks into one action. Opponent must take two actions to dodge both attacks, but only needs one to block the attacks.
Level 100: Newfound Surge can be used twice per battle, once per turn.
I think this will help keep the identity of adhering to ki efficiency without making it so overpowered it's crazy. It's a give and take each and every time and have the ideal limitations on them.
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Post by Lilim on Jun 12, 2020 19:12:24 GMT -5
So like Hit said, let's assume Barrier never gets changed. These are some things I think would be healthy for the game in terms of rulings or fixes.. or maybe just general defensive upgrades: - One block can automatically defend against the entirety of the Second Wave usage.-- I often see someone somewhere saying that the new '75% reduced damage on first block' was introduced as a give and take for Barrier's neutering. A good step in the right direction, but if you really want blocks to be more impactful in today's meta, they need to be able to do more. I think being able to nullify two actions worth of techniques with one block is a way to nullify it. If you dodge, you'd still have to take an action each to dodge each attack, so the drawback to completely avoiding damage is taking more actions to do so. If you want to grin and bear it with a block, you're rewarded in terms of action economy AND take reduced damage thanks to your block. - Second Wave Changes: Only usable once per post, twice per battle. Cannot be used in tandem with other action increasing methods such as Energizer or Double Zanzoken.-- Part of what makes Second Wave work so deeply against the current meta is because of its current state flourishing well with the action economy issue we've had for ten years now. Being able to use it both times in one turn is something I've seen as a tactic to go in tandem with a jump and force someone to take a lot of actions they simply cannot get the resources to defend against. Entering into a meta where we can cheese people just by dogpiling and firing off a shitload of actions is a very real one, and even if you want to say you'll have honor, the fact that it is possible is a very real issue. Alongside this, Second Wave shouldn't be usable when another action increasing method is in play for obvious reasons. You can see the theme I'm going with in these suggestions: stop surpassing action cap by these stupid means. - Double Zanzoken Changes: Cannot surpass the normal 7 action cap by any means.-- When we were in the meta where speed was king and gave you all the actions in the world against your opponent, it was probably some of the worst times we had. Not only was there a power gap, but you couldn't even defend against everything every turn. Even if you tried your best to block with all of your actions, you were always going to take guaranteed damage. That's what is happening again, just by different means. Double Zanzoken is just a start to what I'd like to see changed to reduce this action abuse shit we're in, but ideally nothing should be taking you over 7 actions to put everyone on the same playing field, even when jumps are taken into account. I'd like to point your attention to Arlian Hive if you have an issue with this. I was told in the past it didn't surpass action cap. Why should Double Zanzoken get a pass? - Reversal Changes: Allow Reversal to work on both halves of the Second Wave. (From Lilim)-- In the same way that blocking for both actions of a Second Wave tech would cost one action, Reversal could be a very real defensive technique against this. It would make the Fighting Style a little more relevant (since if you're not using Tactical as your primary, lol what the hell are you doing in this meta?). - The entire removal of Tactical.-- This is easily the most nuclear option, but I do see it as a valid one. Tactical in general is the must-have fighting style and for good reason. It gives you a free 3% ki cost reduction, +0.5 DR to ki and hybrid techs, +20% ki at ANY time for no action and the ability to suddenly power up one of your techs for a measly 5% ki someone could easily have stored up thanks to the reduction? Anyone who isn't using this Fighting Style is either extremely dedicated to being IC with their build or just doesn't battle or have any intention to. I think removing it and introducing something new entirely would probably be the best option (alongside the Double Zanzoken changes), but that's also the least likely thing that'll happen? This is a topic I'd like to go further into, so if you're interested in my version of Tactical, just read below: Level 5: Momentum - If a technique is used twice in a row, reduces the cost of the second cast by -3% ki. Can only be used three times per battle, once per turn.
Level 10: Empowerment - Uses an action to increase a technique's DR by +1 and ki cost by 5%. Opponent must take two actions to dodge it, but only one to block it. Cannot be used with undodgables. Adheres to Advanced cap rule.
Level 15: Moderate Blow - Can be used on any technique to reduce its ki cost by 5%, but also reduces its DR by 1. Can only be used twice per battle, once per turn.
Level 20: Newfound Surge - Allows you to use your Power Up again for half of the ki restoration. Extra effects do not stack. Usable once per battle.
Level 50: Basic Strides - Allows you to stack two fundamental attacks into one action. Opponent must take two actions to dodge both attacks, but only needs one to block the attacks.
Level 100: Newfound Surge can be used twice per battle, once per turn.
I think this will help keep the identity of adhering to ki efficiency without making it so overpowered it's crazy. It's a give and take each and every time and have the ideal limitations on them. 1. I'm personally not comfortable with a Fighting Style perk being able to be blocked by a mechanic that everyone has access to at fresh level 1. Don't get me wrong, Second Wave can be a little oppressive, but I don't really see it as the grave and damning offender here. I'm more looking at how the action economy basically mandates gaining the offensive advantage and maintaining offensive pressure (often by spamming advanced techniques that are very dangerous to ignore). I would much rather something like Reversal or Martial Arts Database being able to negate that, as Second Wave requires investment, so the means by which to defend against it effectively should also require investment. 2. You might as well just attach a Key word to techniques like Double Zanzoken, Energizer, Demon Horn, Arlian Hive, Second Wave, Crush Stance, Tactician, Hot Head, etc. Then, you attach a rule to those techniques with that Key word: Only one technique, item, or ability with 'Keyword' may be used per post. That would cut down on the issues you are probably wanting to mitigate without having to make something contrived per instance. If the idea is to push people down to five actions consistently, I think that is how you would do it. Additionally, if you're worried about bursts of action advantage which can result in long-term battle advantage, that would be how I regulate it as well. It all depends on what exactly folks have a problem with and we zero in on those issues. 3. See #2 4. I think Reversal could work well as either a free action or working on both attacks from Second Wave--both is probably overkill. 5. Please don't remove or over-nerf Tactical--I would much rather each Fighting Style be as good as Tactical, not end up with 5 fighting styles that just end up as 'meh'.
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Post by Dabura on Jun 13, 2020 0:55:16 GMT -5
- One block can automatically defend against the entirety of the Second Wave usage.-- I often see someone somewhere saying that the new '75% reduced damage on first block' was introduced as a give and take for Barrier's neutering. A good step in the right direction, but if you really want blocks to be more impactful in today's meta, they need to be able to do more. I think being able to nullify two actions worth of techniques with one block is a way to nullify it. If you dodge, you'd still have to take an action each to dodge each attack, so the drawback to completely avoiding damage is taking more actions to do so. If you want to grin and bear it with a block, you're rewarded in terms of action economy AND take reduced damage thanks to your block. - Actually, I really like this idea. It certainly creates a *simple* but strategic element to handling Second Wave.- Second Wave Changes: Only usable once per post, twice per battle. Cannot be used in tandem with other action increasing methods such as Energizer or Double Zanzoken.-- Part of what makes Second Wave work so deeply against the current meta is because of its current state flourishing well with the action economy issue we've had for ten years now. Being able to use it both times in one turn is something I've seen as a tactic to go in tandem with a jump and force someone to take a lot of actions they simply cannot get the resources to defend against. Entering into a meta where we can cheese people just by dogpiling and firing off a shitload of actions is a very real one, and even if you want to say you'll have honor, the fact that it is possible is a very real issue. Alongside this, Second Wave shouldn't be usable when another action increasing method is in play for obvious reasons. You can see the theme I'm going with in these suggestions: stop surpassing action cap by these stupid means. - I like the idea of Second Wave being usable once per post. I don't see the need to not allow it to be used with action increases because many action increases take place in the post before you actually get the actions. A lot can change during your opponent's turn, and being trapped out of using SW in a pinch wouldn't be a positive change.- Double Zanzoken Changes: Cannot surpass the normal 7 action cap by any means.-- When we were in the meta where speed was king and gave you all the actions in the world against your opponent, it was probably some of the worst times we had. Not only was there a power gap, but you couldn't even defend against everything every turn. Even if you tried your best to block with all of your actions, you were always going to take guaranteed damage. That's what is happening again, just by different means. Double Zanzoken is just a start to what I'd like to see changed to reduce this action abuse shit we're in, but ideally nothing should be taking you over 7 actions to put everyone on the same playing field, even when jumps are taken into account. I'd like to point your attention to Arlian Hive if you have an issue with this. I was told in the past it didn't surpass action cap. Why should Double Zanzoken get a pass? - I think Double Zanzoken should simply be changed to provide double speed on two of your actions, rather than giving you +2 actions that are double speed.- Reversal Changes: Allow Reversal to work on both halves of the Second Wave. (From Lilim)-- In the same way that blocking for both actions of a Second Wave tech would cost one action, Reversal could be a very real defensive technique against this. It would make the Fighting Style a little more relevant (since if you're not using Tactical as your primary, lol what the hell are you doing in this meta?). - I like the idea of reversal working against both techs in Second Wave. It of course would only fire 1 technique back, and I think it should burn both reversal uses. It would still be a 1 action defense, so still addresses the action economy issue.- The entire removal of Tactical.-- This is easily the most nuclear option, but I do see it as a valid one. Tactical in general is the must-have fighting style and for good reason. It gives you a free 3% ki cost reduction, +0.5 DR to ki and hybrid techs, +20% ki at ANY time for no action and the ability to suddenly power up one of your techs for a measly 5% ki someone could easily have stored up thanks to the reduction? Anyone who isn't using this Fighting Style is either extremely dedicated to being IC with their build or just doesn't battle or have any intention to. I think removing it and introducing something new entirely would probably be the best option (alongside the Double Zanzoken changes), but that's also the least likely thing that'll happen? - Nuking Tactical is pointless when we can so easily fix the things that make it OP. The changes I agreed with above already address some of the issues with tactical. Ki Manipulation should be reduced to 2%, and Reserves reduced to 10%.
Tarble: I like some of these suggestions. I have my reply to each of your points in the spoiler above. Curtis: As per our conversation, I would like to see a simplified, yet diverse battle system. Many turn-based RPGs have a simple "1 action" system that still allows for a number of different tactics and exciting gameplay. I don't think we need to go to 1 action, but I think we could still operate very well with a system that did not allow for action reduction or gain (except for under extreme/rare circumstances). If anyone thinks that would be doable and fun, please feel free to toss out ideas for how we could change the items/techs that currently increase or decrease actions. Temporary Speed/Toughness reductions? Action-limiters (where a stun would mean an opponent can only use an action to do certain things, rather than actually losing that action. Similar to the blind critical)?
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Post by Lilim on Jun 13, 2020 9:22:06 GMT -5
My first thought would be to reduce the overall number of actions that most people utilize in battle. One of the issues we run into in a lot of these battles is an unhealthy dose of 'too long; didn't read'. According to the site, the minimum requirement for each post is like 200 words, and most people try to fit their stuff into around 500, but having far too many actions tends to stretch those a lot. I feel like pushing everyone down to three actions might be useful in that regard, but since we already have a starting number of actions at four, that's not a bad compromise either. Three actions might have to be tested to see how things fare in terms of battle flow, but we have a more-or-less understanding that four has enough of an action economy to be interesting and healthy, so it depends on if we want to test three to see if it 'works' or just stick with what we already know.
As for action gain and reduction, there are a few suggestions I would give: - Double Zanzoken (just as an alternative to your suggestion) instead triples your speed for one action (as opposed to regular Zanzoken's doubling). Alternatively, if it only doubles speed, then yes, lasts for 2 actions. - As far as Stuns are concerned, we might make it similar to blind, except stuns prevent you from using any 'technique' or item. You could still block, dodge, or attack with a Stun Action, you just couldn't use a technique with it (this would cover everything in the 'Techniques' page) or utilizing any item. (Changing the definition of 'Stun' to this allows us to not have to reword all the Techniques that reference it). - Freezing change I would recommend: Reduces speed by 15% for 6 performed actions made against you. - Crush change I would recommend: -10% all stats for the next 8 performed actions made against you. (Remove action reducer entirely) - Ice Blast: A blast shot from one hand which encases your opponent in an ice-cube. This attack can be used defensively to stop a physical attack combo and will inflict a Freezing Critical upon the opponent. May be used twice per battle. Critical Effect: Immobilize. - Hokaku Kon Dan: change "Reduces your opponent's actions by 1 during their next post." to "Inflicts a 1-action stun on your opponent." - Hyper Tornado Attack: "You spin around quickly that creates a tornado. The tornado seeks out your opponent, dealing stacking DR3 damage per action to them. This attack is undodgeable. If used by Pikkon has DR3.5 instead." - Galatica Donut: A ring of ki energy that can be used to surround the enemy and trap him by holding his limbs with the donuts. Stuns opponent for 3 actions or if broken. If the target's strength exceeds users by at least 50%, it will only stun them for 1 action. Can be used once per enemy. Critical Effect: Immobilize. - Crush Stance: Reduces the Action Cost of your next attack technique by 1 (minimum of 1). Usable once per battle. - Scouters that add actions to your post can only be used to activate Transformations, use items (that buff yourself), and activate any upgrades the Scouter itself possesses. (Basically, having a Scouter allows you to 'prepare more' at the beginning of a battle, rather than allowing them to be used for attacks). We might need a new Passive that allows you to do the same thing as this without needing a Scouter (so in order to get those 'preparation' actions, you either have to have a Scouter or a Passive. Make it obvious that they don't stack). - Single-Target Fundamentals and Advanced should all cost 1 action--Advanced Techniques that target more than one target (AoE or Multi-Target) should have the option of costing only 1 action if they target only one opponent, but if they target more than one opponent, it costs an additional action. Basically, any Advanced that costs 2 actions or more need to be reduced (especially if we make the action 'cap' at 3 instead of 4). Any finishers with an action cost higher than 2 or 3 should probably be dropped down to that level as well. - Energizer: +10% Speed for your next two posts. - Arlian Hive: -10% Speed for your opponent's next two posts. - Stasis Grenade: Prevents an opponent from using Finishers for their next two posts. (Actually make Stasis Crystal worth picking up). - Hot Head Level 1: Allows you first post in a battle regardless of speed. Increases strength during your first two posts by +20%. - Hot Head Level 2: +30% Strength Instead. (Because Hot Head is limited time, we make the bonus double that of Street Fighter) - Tactician: Once per Referee Report, gain +1 Counter. Additionally, gain either +1 prepared item slot or +1 prepared weapon technique slot. (Alternatively, we could make this be a 2nd Shishio). - Speed Action: Instead of gaining +1 action for having the required amount of speed, you recharge a Speed Teleport per Referee Report.
Those are all the ones I can think of for now. These are just suggestions, so feel free to rip them apart as you see fit. Again, these suggestions are if we go with reducing the overall actions characters have in a battle. Other options exist as well (such as making more options to increase the number of actions a character has, or alternatively increasing the amount and types of counters on the site).
EDIT: For Sneak Attacks, I feel like the max amount of actions gained from sneak attack bonus actions should be +1 action (no more than that, hard cap).
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Post by Dabura on Jun 13, 2020 12:34:07 GMT -5
My first thought would be to reduce the overall number of actions that most people utilize in battle. One of the issues we run into in a lot of these battles is an unhealthy dose of 'too long; didn't read'. According to the site, the minimum requirement for each post is like 200 words, and most people try to fit their stuff into around 500, but having far too many actions tends to stretch those a lot. I feel like pushing everyone down to three actions might be useful in that regard, but since we already have a starting number of actions at four, that's not a bad compromise either. Three actions might have to be tested to see how things fare in terms of battle flow, but we have a more-or-less understanding that four has enough of an action economy to be interesting and healthy, so it depends on if we want to test three to see if it 'works' or just stick with what we already know. As for action gain and reduction, there are a few suggestions I would give: - Double Zanzoken (just as an alternative to your suggestion) instead quadruples your speed for one action (as opposed to regular Zanzoken's doubling). We should probably add an addendum to Double Zanzoken that you must know Zanzoken as well, and then make regular Zanzoken not take a slot. - As far as Stuns are concerned, we might make it similar to blind, except stuns prevent you from using any 'technique' or item. You could still block, dodge, or attack with a Stun Action, you just couldn't use a technique with it (this would cover everything in the 'Techniques' page) or utilizing any item. (Changing the definition of 'Stun' to this allows us to not have to reword all the Techniques that reference it). - Freezing change I would recommend: Reduces speed by 15% for 6 performed actions made against you. - Crush change I would recommend: -10% all stats for the next 8 performed actions made against you. (Remove action reducer entirely) - Ice Blast: A blast shot from one hand which encases your opponent in an ice-cube. This attack can be used defensively to stop a physical attack combo and will inflict a Freezing Critical upon the opponent. May be used twice per battle. Critical Effect: Immobilize. - Hokaku Kon Dan: change "Reduces your opponent's actions by 1 during their next post." to "Inflicts a 1-action stun on your opponent." - Hyper Tornado Attack: "You spin around quickly that creates a tornado. The tornado seeks out your opponent, dealing stacking DR3 damage per action to them. This attack is undodgeable. If used by Pikkon has DR3.5 instead." - Galatica Donut: A ring of ki energy that can be used to surround the enemy and trap him by holding his limbs with the donuts. Stuns opponent for 3 actions or if broken. If the target's strength exceeds users by at least 50%, it will only stun them for 1 action. Can be used once per enemy. Critical Effect: Immobilize. - Crush Stance: Reduces the Action Cost of your next attack technique by 1 (minimum of 1). Usable once per battle. - Scouters that add actions to your post can only be used to activate Transformations, use items (that buff yourself), and activate any upgrades the Scouter itself possesses. (Basically, having a Scouter allows you to 'prepare more' at the beginning of a battle, rather than allowing them to be used for attacks). We might need a new Passive that allows you to do the same thing as this without needing a Scouter (so in order to get those 'preparation' actions, you either have to have a Scouter or a Passive. Make it obvious that they don't stack). - Single-Target Fundamentals and Advanced should all cost 1 action--Advanced Techniques that target more than one target (AoE or Multi-Target) should have the option of costing only 1 action if they target only one opponent, but if they target more than one opponent, it costs an additional action. Basically, any Advanced that costs 2 actions or more need to be reduced (especially if we make the action 'cap' at 3 instead of 4). Any finishers with an action cost higher than 2 or 3 should probably be dropped down to that level as well. - Energizer: +10% Speed for your next two posts. - Arlian Hive: -10% Speed for your opponent's next two posts. - Stasis Grenade: Prevents an opponent from using Finishers for their next two posts. (Actually make Stasis Crystal worth picking up). - Hot Head Level 1: Allows you first post in a battle regardless of speed. Increases strength during your first two posts by +20%. - Hot Head Level 2: +30% Strength Instead. (Because Hot Head is limited time, we make the bonus double that of Street Fighter) - Tactician: Once per Referee Report, gain +1 Counter. Additionally, gain either +1 prepared item slot or +1 prepared weapon technique slot. (Alternatively, we could make this be a 2nd Shishio). - Speed Action: Instead of gaining +1 action for having the required amount of speed, you recharge a Speed Teleport per Referee Report. Those are all the ones I can think of for now. These are just suggestions, so feel free to rip them apart as you see fit. Again, these suggestions are if we go with reducing the overall actions characters have in a battle. Other options exist as well (such as making more options to increase the number of actions a character has, or alternatively increasing the amount and types of counters on the site). EDIT: For Sneak Attacks, I feel like the max amount of actions gained from sneak attack bonus actions should be +1 action (no more than that, hard cap). [/quote] We’ve talked about this in DM and I have to say I like all of this. My only preferences were that stuns restrict both item AND technique usage, and that Double Zanzoken be either x3 Speed for 1 action OR x2 for 2 actions. Either way I don’t think it should make Zanzoken a free slot.
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Post by Shell on Jun 14, 2020 12:51:26 GMT -5
OK I started tossing out ideas in mod chat. Some of them might suck. Some of them likely suck. Just some other options in my head too. Nothing is like this is going to happen just some ideas.
- It was actually laughed at because I said Make Double Z count towards Action cap and Second Wave be 1 time per post like 7 times and didn't get responded to because others were arguing about Barrier.
- Scouter Actions: Can be used at anytime during a battle, but only for scouter based actions (IE: Bioscan, Tech Scan, MAD Counter, MAD Style Stopper)
- Stun Actions (Mind you per admin ruling this includes all reducers, traps, stuns whatever the wording is): They will actually give the user extra actions, but during those actions they can only Use Items, Power Up, Aid themselves in a dodge (maybe depending on situation), Or used SA/QA/WA attacks
- Fatigue Action: We used to have this before, but make it so if you use 2 or more Advanced and/or Finishers in a round you get -1 Post next post from Fatigue. This used to be in the game, but was gotten rid of.
- If you have 2 or more DR 6's or above coming at you in a post, then you can't be stunned that post.
- When you jump a battle your fist post is minus the number of turns you are into the battle and minus handicap if applicable and 1 action must be spent to just join and then if you need to IT in that is another action (You can still get the join action if you are joining that late). Also the first turn only actions would only be on the first turn of the battle between the original 2 combatants. That or make it so the first post they can't attack only aid in defense or use items (that don't target your opponent).
- Redo The level 15 Tact Fighting Style that it restores 20% Lost Vitality and not just gives you extra Ki
- Add in a Toughness Action (Same % difference as Speed) which would give +1 Defense in a turn, A STR Action (Same % difference as Speed) for +1 Offense, Keep Speed, but a Player can only use 1 of these actions in a turn. A toughness Action for Defense would gain Effectiveness and as would an Attack from a STR Action. Speed gets neither since it can be used on offense or defense.
- On the topic of NERF THE HELL OUT OF TACT FIGHTING STYLE... Maybe give some ideas to bring up the other ones??? Things like Reversal being buffed, well Reversal is the main reason to go that style. Maybe buff like Maneuvers to allow it to take on 2 Advanced uncharged or 1 charged advance? I am trying to work on bringing up the STR one already.
- The possible Aggressive Style Change I was talking about with Lilim before was... Aggressive and make Finishing Blow the 5. Make Follow Through the 10 Keep the 15 20 would be a Physical Damage Increase of sorts, 50 would be the 100, Something Cool for the 100 (you will notice the 20 and 100 were not really set in stone)
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Kallabash
Grizzled Veteran
I'm Digu
Posts: 552
Race: Android
Soul: Tri
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Post by Kallabash on Jun 14, 2020 22:59:57 GMT -5
OK I started tossing out ideas in mod chat. Some of them might suck. Some of them likely suck. Just some other options in my head too. Nothing is like this is going to happen just some ideas. - It was actually laughed at because I said Make Double Z count towards Action cap and Second Wave be 1 time per post like 7 times and didn't get responded to because others were arguing about Barrier. - We could make DZ count against the cap, or just make it two actions worth of double speed for the cost of Zanzoken. One time use still. (Could be one action of triple speed instead)- Scouter Actions: Can be used at anytime during a battle, but only for scouter based actions (IE: Bioscan, Tech Scan, MAD Counter, MAD Style Stopper) - I think a mixture of this idea and Curtis's would be best. Can be used any time, but can be used for any item/transformation. Basically extra 'prep' actions but usable at any time.
- Stun Actions (Mind you per admin ruling this includes all reducers, traps, stuns whatever the wording is): They will actually give the user extra actions, but during those actions they can only Use Items, Power Up, Aid themselves in a dodge (maybe depending on situation), Or used SA/QA/WA attacks - This is basically the same idea Curtis threw up above, except his involved limiting the person that got stunned to only certain things for their actions. Limiting the stunned person makes the most sense, but I think adding limited actions to the person that did the stunning would be better. People who stun their opponent would receive their extra action on the *following* post after successfully stunning an enemy.
- Fatigue Action: We used to have this before, but make it so if you use 2 or more Advanced and/or Finishers in a round you get -1 Post next post from Fatigue. This used to be in the game, but was gotten rid of. - I prefer the idea of people not losing actions, ever, and if they DO gain them, that they are limited actions like the instances above.
- If you have 2 or more DR 6's or above coming at you in a post, then you can't be stunned that post. - If we change stuns to the idea you stated above, then I don't think this one right here is necessary.
- When you jump a battle your fist post is minus the number of turns you are into the battle and minus handicap if applicable and 1 action must be spent to just join and then if you need to IT in that is another action (You can still get the join action if you are joining that late). Also the first turn only actions would only be on the first turn of the battle between the original 2 combatants. That or make it so the first post they can't attack only aid in defense or use items (that don't target your opponent). - I don't like most of this section, but the "can only aid in defense or use items" part is gold imo. Means jumping comes at a cost, albeit worth it in most cases anyways.
- Redo The level 15 Tact Fighting Style that it restores 20% Lost Vitality and not just gives you extra Ki - I believe that Vit and Stamina drain are entirely pointless, redundant mechanics. There HAS to be something better we can do with those two stats. I'd prefer we trend that direction rather than continue to dig ourselves deeper in the drain area. Simply reducing Second Wind to 10% would make it more balanced but still valuable.
- Add in a Toughness Action (Same % difference as Speed) which would give +1 Defense in a turn, A STR Action (Same % difference as Speed) for +1 Offense, Keep Speed, but a Player can only use 1 of these actions in a turn. A toughness Action for Defense would gain Effectiveness and as would an Attack from a STR Action. Speed gets neither since it can be used on offense or defense. - I personally think we should move Speed action to double speed. That said, creating a STR/TOU action that were also based on having double in that stat would be great imo. What kind of bonus to blocking/attacking would this entail? +25% dmg/effectiveness?- On the topic of NERF THE HELL OUT OF TACT FIGHTING STYLE... Maybe give some ideas to bring up the other ones??? Things like Reversal being buffed, well Reversal is the main reason to go that style. Maybe buff like Maneuvers to allow it to take on 2 Advanced uncharged or 1 charged advance? I am trying to work on bringing up the STR one already. - We SHOULD nerf some aspects of Tactical, but not at the extreme some people have suggested. There are some changes I pointed out above (Second Wind to 10%, Ki Manip down to 2% (on energy attacks alone, not the hybrids that we should be removing anyways)- The possible Aggressive Style Change I was talking about with Lilim before was... Aggressive and make Finishing Blow the 5. Make Follow Through the 10 Keep the 15 20 would be a Physical Damage Increase of sorts, 50 would be the 100, Something Cool for the 100 (you will notice the 20 and 100 were not really set in stone) - We should come up with some fighting style changes for all of the subpar styles that reflect whatever we actually come out of the next patch looking like. Until then, I think we could spend our time more wisely by working on the core of the battle system)I responded to Shell's points in the spoiler above.
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Post by Lilim on Jun 15, 2020 3:51:56 GMT -5
I'm still chewing on a lot of these suggestions--the one that leaps out at me the most is the idea of getting rid of Stamina and Vitality drain as a mechanic. I'm on the fence on this one, but I do agree that we either need to get rid of Stamina Drain (there's a lot of math involved that some people mess up anyway), though we could remove Ki% as a mechanic instead and make it strictly a stamina mechanic. Basically, your ability to use Ki would be solely governed by your stamina, not how much Ki% you have left. As for vitality drain, a lot of the site is either for or against it to varying degrees, so we don't really have a consensus on that yet. I have a few ideas on that, but its ultimately a separate discussion for a later time.
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