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Post by Shell on Jun 15, 2020 12:14:40 GMT -5
Also mentioned before something with battles having to build up to special moments. So Advanced Techs couldn't be used till 4th post. Finishers till 7th. It would drag on battles, but it would also make you likely use martial skills or fundamental attacks at least a little to start a battle.
(Again I'm tossing out that I'm just putting ideas that have been mentioned here.)
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Post by Shell on Jun 15, 2020 12:51:33 GMT -5
Tarbles Suggestions These are some things I think would be healthy for the game in terms of rulings or fixes.. or maybe just general defensive upgrades:
- One block can automatically defend against the entirety of the Second Wave usage. -- I often see someone somewhere saying that the new '75% reduced damage on first block' was introduced as a give and take for Barrier's neutering. A good step in the right direction, but if you really want blocks to be more impactful in today's meta, they need to be able to do more. I think being able to nullify two actions worth of techniques with one block is a way to nullify it. If you dodge, you'd still have to take an action each to dodge each attack, so the drawback to completely avoiding damage is taking more actions to do so. If you want to grin and bear it with a block, you're rewarded in terms of action economy AND take reduced damage thanks to your block.
This would be a huge nerf to 2nd Wave. I'd say maybe, but it would need to be RP'd properly and also probably would both be partial blocks for 1 action
- Second Wave Changes: Only usable once per post, twice per battle. Cannot be used in tandem with other action increasing methods such as Energizer or Double Zanzoken. -- Part of what makes Second Wave work so deeply against the current meta is because of its current state flourishing well with the action economy issue we've had for ten years now. Being able to use it both times in one turn is something I've seen as a tactic to go in tandem with a jump and force someone to take a lot of actions they simply cannot get the resources to defend against. Entering into a meta where we can cheese people just by dogpiling and firing off a shitload of actions is a very real one, and even if you want to say you'll have honor, the fact that it is possible is a very real issue. Alongside this, Second Wave shouldn't be usable when another action increasing method is in play for obvious reasons. You can see the theme I'm going with in these suggestions: stop surpassing action cap by these stupid means.
Yeah I mentioned this as well. I don't hate the idea
- Double Zanzoken Changes: Cannot surpass the normal 7 action cap by any means. -- When we were in the meta where speed was king and gave you all the actions in the world against your opponent, it was probably some of the worst times we had. Not only was there a power gap, but you couldn't even defend against everything every turn. Even if you tried your best to block with all of your actions, you were always going to take guaranteed damage. That's what is happening again, just by different means. Double Zanzoken is just a start to what I'd like to see changed to reduce this action abuse shit we're in, but ideally nothing should be taking you over 7 actions to put everyone on the same playing field, even when jumps are taken into account. I'd like to point your attention to Arlian Hive if you have an issue with this. I was told in the past it didn't surpass action cap. Why should Double Zanzoken get a pass?
Again don't hate the idea. Put it in myself. Also the idea that maybe it would just be next 2 actions get the speed boast and just be 2 Zanzokens... I also just thought maybe making it so they can only be used for Dodge, Power Up or Charging actions. Really if I'm leaving an after image how is that attacking??? Even though Goku was using IT vs Beerus in Battle of the Gods it would be like that when he was charging the Kamehameha in my mind at least.
- Reversal Changes: Allow Reversal to work on both halves of the Second Wave. (From Lilim) -- In the same way that blocking for both actions of a Second Wave tech would cost one action, Reversal could be a very real defensive technique against this. It would make the Fighting Style a little more relevant (since if you're not using Tactical as your primary, lol what the hell are you doing in this meta?).
I don't hate it, but again Reversal is the Prime Perk of Stamina Style. Buffing it doesn't help the other lesser perks.
- The entire removal of Tactical. -- This is easily the most nuclear option, but I do see it as a valid one. Tactical in general is the must-have fighting style and for good reason. It gives you a free 3% ki cost reduction, +0.5 DR to ki and hybrid techs, +20% ki at ANY time for no action and the ability to suddenly power up one of your techs for a measly 5% ki someone could easily have stored up thanks to the reduction? Anyone who isn't using this Fighting Style is either extremely dedicated to being IC with their build or just doesn't battle or have any intention to. I think removing it and introducing something new entirely would probably be the best option (alongside the Double Zanzoken changes), but that's also the least likely thing that'll happen?
Legit not going to happen. Might be brought down a little, but complete removal ain't happening. Bring others up, don't tear down.
For Lilim's - Double Zanzoken (just as an alternative to your suggestion) instead triples your speed for one action (as opposed to regular Zanzoken's doubling). Alternatively, if it only doubles speed, then yes, lasts for 2 actions.
The Speed thing here. The Ki Cost would likely need to come down, but I think Digu mentioned that.
- As far as Stuns are concerned, we might make it similar to blind, except stuns prevent you from using any 'technique' or item. You could still block, dodge, or attack with a Stun Action, you just couldn't use a technique with it (this would cover everything in the 'Techniques' page) or utilizing any item. (Changing the definition of 'Stun' to this allows us to not have to reword all the Techniques that reference it).
I put that it would actually help the used by giving more actions that post (or next as Digu said). Those actions that the stun user would get would be limited to SA/QA/WA, Item Usage and Power Ups.
- Freezing change I would recommend: Reduces speed by 15% for 6 performed actions made against you. - Crush change I would recommend: -10% all stats for the next 8 performed actions made against you. (Remove action reducer entirely) - Ice Blast: A blast shot from one hand which encases your opponent in an ice-cube. This attack can be used defensively to stop a physical attack combo and will inflict a Freezing Critical upon the opponent. May be used twice per battle. Critical Effect: Immobilize. - Hokaku Kon Dan: change "Reduces your opponent's actions by 1 during their next post." to "Inflicts a 1-action stun on your opponent." - Hyper Tornado Attack: "You spin around quickly that creates a tornado. The tornado seeks out your opponent, dealing stacking DR3 damage per action to them. This attack is undodgeable. If used by Pikkon has DR3.5 instead." Removing the stun altogether on this, but what is the per action based off? - Galatica Donut: A ring of ki energy that can be used to surround the enemy and trap him by holding his limbs with the donuts. Stuns opponent for 3 actions or if broken. If the target's strength exceeds users by at least 50%, it will only stun them for 1 action. Can be used once per enemy. Critical Effect: Immobilize.
The rewording of Stun and Action Loss is just paperwork. Admin rulings already say they are all the same and don't stack.
- Crush Stance: Reduces the Action Cost of your next attack technique by 1 (minimum of 1). Usable once per battle. Stances suck already and are hardly usable in combat after the first usage. That needs to be addressed before just changing any of them.
- Scouters that add actions to your post can only be used to activate Transformations, use items (that buff yourself), and activate any upgrades the Scouter itself possesses. (Basically, having a Scouter allows you to 'prepare more' at the beginning of a battle, rather than allowing them to be used for attacks). We might need a new Passive that allows you to do the same thing as this without needing a Scouter (so in order to get those 'preparation' actions, you either have to have a Scouter or a Passive. Make it obvious that they don't stack). I said in mind that they would only be used for Scouter Based Actions and usable whenever in combat. - Single-Target Fundamentals and Advanced should all cost 1 action--Advanced Techniques that target more than one target (AoE or Multi-Target) should have the option of costing only 1 action if they target only one opponent, but if they target more than one opponent, it costs an additional action. Basically, any Advanced that costs 2 actions or more need to be reduced (especially if we make the action 'cap' at 3 instead of 4). Any finishers with an action cost higher than 2 or 3 should probably be dropped down to that level as well. Not a single Fundamental Tech takes 2 actions. Only 7 Advanced do (Tri Beam, Tree Cannon and Hyper Tornado are the only ones not AOE or Multi Target). - Energizer: +10% Speed for your next two posts. Depends on how you change Actions and Stuns... - Arlian Hive: -10% Speed for your opponent's next two posts. Same as Above - Stasis Grenade: Prevents an opponent from using Finishers for their next two posts. (Actually make Stasis Crystal worth picking up). - Hot Head Level 1: Allows you first post in a battle regardless of speed. Increases strength during your first two posts by +20%. Then both people have it... - Hot Head Level 2: +30% Strength Instead. (Because Hot Head is limited time, we make the bonus double that of Street Fighter) - Tactician: Once per Referee Report, gain +1 Counter. Additionally, gain either +1 prepared item slot or +1 prepared weapon technique slot. (Alternatively, we could make this be a 2nd Shishio). Just removing dem actions. It would make Tact not required for battling, but everyone has it that battles so it is just an even swap around.
- Speed Action: Instead of gaining +1 action for having the required amount of speed, you recharge a Speed Teleport per Referee Report. Maybe...
Those are all the ones I can think of for now. These are just suggestions, so feel free to rip them apart as you see fit. Again, these suggestions are if we go with reducing the overall actions characters have in a battle. Other options exist as well (such as making more options to increase the number of actions a character has, or alternatively increasing the amount and types of counters on the site).
EDIT: For Sneak Attacks, I feel like the max amount of actions gained from sneak attack bonus actions should be +1 action (no more than that, hard cap). So many ways to avoid sneak actions.
To Digu's on Mine... OK I started tossing out ideas in mod chat. Some of them might suck. Some of them likely suck. Just some other options in my head too. Nothing is like this is going to happen just some ideas.
- It was actually laughed at because I said Make Double Z count towards Action cap and Second Wave be 1 time per post like 7 times and didn't get responded to because others were arguing about Barrier. - We could make DZ count against the cap, or just make it two actions worth of double speed for the cost of Zanzoken. One time use still. (Could be one action of triple speed instead) I think we have to do something here though and I think we all kinda agree on that.
- Scouter Actions: Can be used at anytime during a battle, but only for scouter based actions (IE: Bioscan, Tech Scan, MAD Counter, MAD Style Stopper) - I think a mixture of this idea and Curtis's would be best. Can be used any time, but can be used for any item/transformation. Basically extra 'prep' actions but usable at any time. Transformations could be cool too. I just thought Scouter Based actions whenever could make them more interesting than anything else...
- Stun Actions (Mind you per admin ruling this includes all reducers, traps, stuns whatever the wording is): They will actually give the user extra actions, but during those actions they can only Use Items, Power Up, Aid themselves in a dodge (maybe depending on situation), Or used SA/QA/WA attacks - This is basically the same idea Curtis threw up above, except his involved limiting the person that got stunned to only certain things for their actions. Limiting the stunned person makes the most sense, but I think adding limited actions to the person that did the stunning would be better. People who stun their opponent would receive their extra action on the *following* post after successfully stunning an enemy. Yeah I was specifically referring to mostly adding actions to the user, so if I use a Stun Tech the next post I would gain X Actions, but those actions are limited to what I can do during them.
- Fatigue Action: We used to have this before, but make it so if you use 2 or more Advanced and/or Finishers in a round you get -1 Post next post from Fatigue. This used to be in the game, but was gotten rid of. - I prefer the idea of people not losing actions, ever, and if they DO gain them, that they are limited actions like the instances above. It was just bringing back an older concept that existed. I think it would likely be a pain. Maybe make it so 2 or more Advanced in a turn 1 action next post can't be used to Attack or Defend. Again Items, Power Ups, Transformations??? Again tossing out ideas they might be stupid.
- If you have 2 or more DR 6's or above coming at you in a post, then you can't be stunned that post. - If we change stuns to the idea you stated above, then I don't think this one right here is necessary. I agree in general, but I tossed it out so I brought it up here. I'd rather fix how stun/action reducers/traps whatever work like than doing this.
- When you jump a battle your fist post is minus the number of turns you are into the battle and minus handicap if applicable and 1 action must be spent to just join and then if you need to IT in that is another action (You can still get the join action if you are joining that late). Also the first turn only actions would only be on the first turn of the battle between the original 2 combatants. That or make it so the first post they can't attack only aid in defense or use items (that don't target your opponent). - I don't like most of this section, but the "can only aid in defense or use items" part is gold imo. Means jumping comes at a cost, albeit worth it in most cases anyways. Yeah truly the first part seemed to confusing to me. I didn't hate the 2nd part about only jumping and being able to join, transform aid on your first post, but no attacking on that one at least.
- Redo The level 15 Tact Fighting Style that it restores 20% Lost Vitality and not just gives you extra Ki - I believe that Vit and Stamina drain are entirely pointless, redundant mechanics. There HAS to be something better we can do with those two stats. I'd prefer we trend that direction rather than continue to dig ourselves deeper in the drain area. Simply reducing Second Wind to 10% would make it more balanced but still valuable. Ok, I don't hate that either. - Add in a Toughness Action (Same % difference as Speed) which would give +1 Defense in a turn, A STR Action (Same % difference as Speed) for +1 Offense, Keep Speed, but a Player can only use 1 of these actions in a turn. A toughness Action for Defense would gain Effectiveness and as would an Attack from a STR Action. Speed gets neither since it can be used on offense or defense. - I personally think we should move Speed action to double speed. That said, creating a STR/TOU action that were also based on having double in that stat would be great imo. What kind of bonus to blocking/attacking would this entail? +25% dmg/effectiveness? 25% could certainly work. I didn't toss out a number because I didn't know what sounded best as I was thinking about it.
- On the topic of NERF THE HELL OUT OF TACT FIGHTING STYLE... Maybe give some ideas to bring up the other ones??? Things like Reversal being buffed, well Reversal is the main reason to go that style. Maybe buff like Maneuvers to allow it to take on 2 Advanced uncharged or 1 charged advance? I am trying to work on bringing up the STR one already. - We SHOULD nerf some aspects of Tactical, but not at the extreme some people have suggested. There are some changes I pointed out above (Second Wind to 10%, Ki Manip down to 2% (on energy attacks alone, not the hybrids that we should be removing anyways) Some yeah, but the BURN IT DOWN is stupid.
- The possible Aggressive Style Change I was talking about with Lilim before was... Aggressive and make Finishing Blow the 5. Make Follow Through the 10 Keep the 15 20 would be a Physical Damage Increase of sorts, 50 would be the 100, Something Cool for the 100 (you will notice the 20 and 100 were not really set in stone) - We should come up with some fighting style changes for all of the subpar styles that reflect whatever we actually come out of the next patch looking like. Until then, I think we could spend our time more wisely by working on the core of the battle system) Core issues are what it seems like we trying to address. You have mentioned a number of issues with the core battle system. I'd like to hear what those are in depth.
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Post by Lilim on Jun 15, 2020 13:36:14 GMT -5
Also mentioned before something with battles having to build up to special moments. So Advanced Techs couldn't be used till 4th post. Finishers till 7th. It would drag on battles, but it would also make you likely use martial skills or fundamental attacks at least a little to start a battle. (Again I'm tossing out that I'm just putting ideas that have been mentioned here.) The only problem I have with this is that we're basically delaying when the 'real' fight starts to turn 4. No one is going to use items and special techniques until they can use them in tandem with Advanced Techniques, so all you're going to see is physicals and fundamentals. I know that's kind of the 'point' of this suggestion, but all you're doing is delaying the real fight by 3 posts per person.
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Post by Kale on Jun 28, 2020 0:05:09 GMT -5
Garou's Suggestion Reply #5I am cosigned with the idea of limiting Second Wave to once per post. That would be a step in the right direction of making contesting a user of Tactical more manageable. I personally don't think its necessary to make it unusable with action increasing things. A restriction of once per post would be adequate to reduce the likely hood that someone can open going ham and have half their things be rendered indefensible due to the action economy.
As for your suggestion of making it a flat reduction lasting the entire duration of a post, I think its a good step in the right direction to add some practicality to its state of being a telegraphed defense. Though as you have it written 45%-50% could be too much. If barrier worked like that. I would use barrier/body shield and stack them with blocks so the attacks would do little to nothing to me, plus that would make barrier/body shields function quite akin to the Seraph perk of additional 50% charges to barrier, My suggestion based around this would be make it a 25% damage reduction for the next post, though thats just off the top of my head. Tarble Suggestion Reply #7I do like the idea of reversal working on both halves of second wave, though I use it so I am inclined to like it. Though that does help people who have the calculating fighting style Second Wave would still pose a greater issue to people who do not have reversal in their arsenal. However it is a good start and I like the idea of the different fighting styles being able to counter one another as I do like a rock-paper-scissors element to RPGs. I do not care for the outright removal of tactical, the benefits its offers take time to be earned, and rebalancing it should be done before such an extreme option. I think your proposed option of Tactical is too weak and would defeat the purpose since its a fighting style that focuses on efficient use of ki and allowing greater damage output. I would say leave the abilities the same with some moderate reduction to their power so it still is true to its core purpose, but is less open to abuse. Here are some are my suggestions with what you and others have said in mind.
Second Wave: Make it function the same as it has with the exception of making it limited to once per post
Empowerment: Make it work on Advanced for 5% ki and even usable on undodgable techniques(note: my reasoning being undodable techniques can't be charged other than with Instant Transmission anyway), and make it work with Finisher's as well but rather than just 5% Empowering a finisher would cost 10%(This way bolstering up an already likely to be draining technique could incur a significant cost to the user. An empowered x10 Kamehameha could be 30% ki maybe the very least 25% with things that could reduce costs)
Reserves: Make it 10% instead of 20%(Same as Dabura's suggestion)
Ki Manipulation: (Same as Dabura said make -2%ki cost reduction and not have it extend to hybrids.)
Lv 50 Empowerment Twice per Battle: Remain the same
Lv 100 Endless Waves: Remain the same
I think these adjustments would allow Tactical to stay true to its core without eliminating nearly all need of mindful resource management. To Shell's Last suggestion Reply #16As someone who uses Advanced techniques very sparingly, I have to agree with Lilim, it would only drag on the fight and as soon as people could gain access to their Advanced techniques we'd run into the same issue just at a later point. Also I feel this would hurt the fun because than we'd be barred from using what could be our favorite moves until later. My Current Thoughts on Barrier/Body Shield and the Ki Spam Meta:Bebi DMed me and asked me for suggestions of compensating for the change to Barrier. I suggested making them have to land to diminish the barrier, that way it becoming proactive use only is less of detriment as a telegraphed defense, though people could lol dodge, dodges can fail, and if people are doing things like reversal or blast canceling to preserve their barrier they are they are sacrificing the action economy as well as other defensive options. Plus as it is now, someone can just use a beam ball to weaken a barrier and render it useless against a charged technique, rendering the potential of use against charged moves untenable.
With all that being said, as it stands now I am inclined to believe it would be best to revert barrier/body shield to how it worked originally, maybe this can change with whatever other changes Bebi/Digu as well as other stance can push forward. My reasoning being is that their nerf has worsened the issue of ki spam as they are less solid answers to someone taking an aggressive approach that is allowed to thrive due to the potency of drain mitigation from things like Tactical. Also hybrid techniques now have greater potential to be problematic now that there are no longer viable direct defenses against their spam. I have reason to believe one of the main issues with them is that there are too few defenses against them as it is. I remember Vegeta saying that the thing about them was that when they were added to the game not everything else was updated, and as a result the vast majority of defensive options can only reduce damage from them partially while they in themselves also receive the full benefits of fisticuffs and ki manipulation allowing them to be spammed as moves that can almost never be fully stopped. For these reasons I think it would be best for Barrier and Body Shield to resume their original functionality at least until the other changes that were intended to go with them can be incorporated into the system to ameliorate current/possible issues posed by overabundance of Attack cost mitigation/defense
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Post by Seven on Jul 2, 2020 17:02:47 GMT -5
Just wondering where we are on this right now.
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Post by Cell on Sept 5, 2021 2:02:46 GMT -5
Just an FYI but barrier did get reverted to anybody reading this and wondering lol
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