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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 13:05:36 GMT -5
Okay, its time to put out a complete guide to what Riya thinks about the new changes and even things in the past. I will split this up into Post by Post simply because its a lot of different topics and some topics you might not care / agree with. This format is just easier for you to find something you really care about and comment on that. So feel free to look at the TABLE OF CONTENTS to see what I am potentially bitching about. I do know this is just opinionated as well. That is a forewarning. I am not always right. I don't think I'm right and everything I disagree with isn't always wrong. Some things are just pushing me out of a comfort zone and I am annoyed by it, and I am done just complaining about it through a third party and want to take pressure off of them for once. Thank you Yan for listening to my complaints. 1. Physical Combos and Physical Techniques. --Half Actions. Anything under 1. 3. The Damage Rating System.4. Action Economy5. Ki Economy6. Super Forms
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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 13:06:10 GMT -5
Physical Combos and Physical Techniques.
From what I gather the idea is to experiment with moving away from physical combos and replace them with some experimental half action attacks (half action attack feedback is at the end of this post). This would add more physical techniques, which is good, and there is even an addition of a ki cost free basic attack option which is neat.
The issue to me is how uneeded the change is and how complicated it makes things. Special Attack and Quick Attack should not be taken away and instead should just be assign a value on the Damage Rating Scale instead. Physical Techniques definitely should become 1 action techniques and we get full use of them as fundamentals. That alone will make physical fighters and fights better.
The best way is to assign QA the very basic Damage Rating of 1 and then scale up from there. Increase the Damage Rating of everything by 1 to compensate for it, since the Damage Rating scale does not have an actual defined number of damage.
The place caps to prevent too much overflow. Examples of some cap ideas would be.
A physical combo = DR4 cap Fundamental = DR6 cap +1 per action Advanced = DR8 cap +1 per action Finishers = No cap [We don't lie around here]
Because we have been in the DR system for so long, it looks like a lot, but its just an adjustment. Its more like name changing than boosting the quality of an attack. If you have 1% damage assigned to DR1 before hand, then you will just move that assignment over to DR2 to deal 1% and make DR1 deal 0.5% damage. That's just an example.
And yea that's it for me on this one. I could add more when I think on it but that's it far as physicals go. ---------------------------------------------------- Half Action or just anything that isn't 1 action.
Yea I'll keep this as short as I can. Just something that is uneeded and is complicated for no reason. It sounds nice to combine 2 attacks in one action, but when you try and prevent abuse by drowning out the boosts they get, you get all this extra math you have to deal with. A 1.5 action cost just seems silly and adding a brand new mechanic to combine them with either themselves or another 0.5 action is a lot.
It just feels better to keep everything as integers. Its a writing site and we should just keep math simple for ourselves. 0. anything that isn't a percentage value is complicated. Personal preference here.
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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 13:06:39 GMT -5
Damage Rating System
A lot of refs have agreed to deviate from the "Double DR" system because that scaling is horrible. Agreed. We should, as a unit, come up with an actual official scaling. Not percentage of damage, we can leave that to a per ref basis, but a consistent scale that keeps the system similar.
A lot of refs use dice as well, and have been actually working to make the randomness... not so random. Good. Every Ref should still have their own style, but base damage scaling should become standard.
What I mean by scaling is how it was before. The scale was x2. I normally do x1.5 which means every DR raises 50%. I still feel that is off some. We want battles that feel like...battles and not slaughters and this is a step in the right direction imo. We should have all the current refs get together and come up with a consistent "base" damage that they can play around with in their current ref system.
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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 13:07:05 GMT -5
Action Economy Now this is the topic for me. We need to lower the swing on actions. We now have alot of ways to take away actions with Inscriptions working on every attack and Freezing being a hot Critical effect. That still won't change the action swing with all of these actions. I feel like 7 max and 4 base just isn't the right move. The lower we can get actions, the better off we will be with how posts are structured and the length of a battle being adequate. We should not be in such a rush to finish battles... battles are supposed to be awesome and epic. If you want a quick 'fight' go spar? Anyway, I think we can go base 3 with a hard max of 5. Get rid of action overflowers [Double Zan / Sneak Actions / Chaotic Evil / etc] and instead make those abilities / actions do special things when you use them. Examples: Scouter Actions: Adds Very Hard to Dodge tags to attacks. Hot Head: Attacks during Hot Head actions in the passive are nearly unblockable [If Blocked still deals 25% extra damage] Chaotic Evil: Against non Chaotic enemies, attacks that hit in this action lower all traits by 25% for 2 posts and has a critical effect chance to keep them lowered permenently based on the level of attack used. Sneak Action: Undodgable physical combos [fundamental techniques, whatever route we go] Speed Actions: +X% Speed and makes dodging easier Tactical Actions: +X% effectiveness on technique [Block or bonus damage] Hell, I'll post my idea on Speed and Tactical Actions too: [Speed and Tactician Actions Reworked] Speed Actions are gained the same way Speed Teleports are gained, but this is versus your opponent just like counters. So more like counters instead. If you have this amount more speed than your opponent, then you get this many Speed Actions that can be used per battle. Example Chart: Every 25,000 speed over your opponent you gain 1 speed action to the maximum of 5 per battle. Speed Actions make things easier to dodge or make physical feats (Physical or Hybrid Attacks) harder to dodge than they already were. Tactical Actions New. [Rework Tactician Passive] Tactical Actions are gained the same way Speed Actions are gained, but this is versus your opponent's Intelligence. Tactical Actions use cunning to avoid or block attacks or when used in junction with an attack (charging for instance) increase its effectiveness (maybe you are aiming for a weak spot or something). Defensively increase block/dodge effectivness by 5%. Offensively decrease opponents block/dodge effectiveness by 5%. [Tact Passive Rework] Level 1: You automatically gain 2 tactical actions per battle. Increase the effectiveness of your dodges/blocks to 10% instead of 5% [Decreases to opponents]. Level 2: Increase the effectiveness to 15%. Level 3. Increase the effectiveness to 22.5% This way, you don't really lose the advantage of speed or being smarter. The goal is making it actually feel more fluid when RPing defenses and offenses. It would be really good for pacing if there wasn't 1 million and 1 actions to deal with before you send back 500 thousand.
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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 13:07:24 GMT -5
Ki Economy
Yea this is bad as well. It isn't extremely bad though. It takes a lot of get yourself to a point where ki percentage does not matter too much, but Ki spam isn't just because of actions. It is also because of how much ki can be saved while doing such spam. If you have -5% ki reduction and most effective attacks that deal damage being around the sweet spot of DR4 - DR6, then you have tossing of ki attacks with reckless abandon.
It will also discourage the use of physical attacks, and just adding physical attacks will definitely solve the Ki issue, but also will just turn it into a DR spam issue instead.
What's a good fix? I'm gunna get some questionable looks about this but lol. Who remembers Exhaustion?
It was annoying, but it definitely fixed spam. You didn't want to lose an action because you got trigger happy, but come on?
When you get trigger happy you have to reload right?
So honestly, bring that back and make it kind of like Immobilize with a twist. If you use 2 techniques with a DR5 or above in a row the next technique DR5 or above costs +1 action.
or this one.
If you use 2 techniques that cost more than 10% base ki in a row then the next attack has -1DR and easier to dodge.
Literally just came up with that on the fly.
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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 13:07:41 GMT -5
Super Forms.
Let's get them God Ki Add-ons for every race. We have a direction on the site that I think is interesting (Very Celestial based) and I think its about time every race gets a God form or something.
I am sure its in the works and we just have these current issues to deal with but yea. Super Forms aren't bad where they are. Some feel better than others because of Special Traits they have, but the only ones that are bad bad will be Hybrid.
If they carry over Deity's special to the final one then that would be good.
God Form can be like an augmentation of your base form.
God Form Requirements: All traits 10,000. Tier 4 Super Form or better Ki Drain: 6% [Cannot be regulated] Gainage: +150,000 all +100% to a chosen. Special: If used as an add-on to any super form cut the Gainage in half. [+75,000 all +50% to an additional chosen]
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Post by Vegeta on Feb 14, 2021 13:37:43 GMT -5
Don't fuckin complain publicly. Go to a mod you feel comfortable with and ask them to bring it to the table. Jfc.
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Post by Vegeta on Feb 14, 2021 13:41:53 GMT -5
Physical Combos and Physical Techniques.
From what I gather the idea is to experiment with moving away from physical combos and replace them with some experimental half action attacks (half action attack feedback is at the end of this post). This would add more physical techniques, which is good, and there is even an addition of a ki cost free basic attack option which is neat.
The issue to me is how uneeded the change is and how complicated it makes things. Special Attack and Quick Attack should not be taken away and instead should just be assign a value on the Damage Rating Scale instead. Physical Techniques definitely should become 1 action techniques and we get full use of them as fundamentals. That alone will make physical fighters and fights better.
The best way is to assign QA the very basic Damage Rating of 1 and then scale up from there. Increase the Damage Rating of everything by 1 to compensate for it, since the Damage Rating scale does not have an actual defined number of damage.
The place caps to prevent too much overflow. Examples of some cap ideas would be.
A physical combo = DR4 cap Fundamental = DR6 cap +1 per action Advanced = DR8 cap +1 per action Finishers = No cap [We don't lie around here]
Because we have been in the DR system for so long, it looks like a lot, but its just an adjustment. Its more like name changing than boosting the quality of an attack. If you have 1% damage assigned to DR1 before hand, then you will just move that assignment over to DR2 to deal 1% and make DR1 deal 0.5% damage. That's just an example.
My initial thought here is that I understand what you mean by shifting the damage scale, but the one you outlined doesn't do that correctly. A 2DR difference between Fundie and Advanced caps either severely overpowers Fundies, or severely underpowers Advanced.
And yea that's it for me on this one. I could add more when I think on it but that's it far as physicals go. ---------------------------------------------------- Half Action or just anything that isn't 1 action.
Yea I'll keep this as short as I can. Just something that is unneeded and is complicated for no reason. It sounds nice to combine 2 attacks in one action, but when you try and prevent abuse by drowning out the boosts they get, you get all this extra math you have to deal with. A 1.5 action cost just seems silly and adding a brand new mechanic to combine them with either themselves or another 0.5 action is a lot.
It just feels better to keep everything as integers. Its a writing site and we should just keep math simple for ourselves. 0. anything that isn't a percentage value is complicated. Personal preference here.
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Post by Vegeta on Feb 14, 2021 13:44:25 GMT -5
Damage Rating System
A lot of refs have agreed to deviate from the "Double DR" system because that scaling is horrible. Agreed. We should, as a unit, come up with an actual official scaling. Not percentage of damage, we can leave that to a per ref basis, but a consistent scale that keeps the system similar.
A lot of refs use dice as well, and have been actually working to make the randomness... not so random. Good. Every Ref should still have their own style, but base damage scaling should become standard.
What I mean by scaling is how it was before. The scale was x2. I normally do x1.5 which means every DR raises 50%. I still feel that is off some. We want battles that feel like...battles and not slaughters and this is a step in the right direction imo. We should have all the current refs get together and come up with a consistent "base" damage that they can play around with in their current ref system.
I 100% feel that any DR system that applies a consistent ratio such as x2 or x1.5 is broken. It will always undervalue low DRs, or overvalue high DRs. That is, unless there is a reasonable amount of dmg that is also randomized (via dice).
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Post by Vegeta on Feb 14, 2021 13:50:56 GMT -5
Action Economy Now this is the topic for me. We need to lower the swing on actions. We now have alot of ways to take away actions with Inscriptions working on every attack and Freezing being a hot Critical effect. That still won't change the action swing with all of these actions. I feel like 7 max and 4 base just isn't the right move. The lower we can get actions, the better off we will be with how posts are structured and the length of a battle being adequate. We should not be in such a rush to finish battles... battles are supposed to be awesome and epic. If you want a quick 'fight' go spar? Anyway, I think we can go base 3 with a hard max of 5. Get rid of action overflowers [Double Zan / Sneak Actions / Chaotic Evil / etc] and instead make those abilities / actions do special things when you use them. 100% agree. Been pushing for the 3 base for a hot sec. Will continue. ^_^ I like the idea of a hard max of 5 as well, and though it'd be a big change to all the action reducing/increasing methods out there, I'm behind it.Examples: Scouter Actions: Adds Very Hard to Dodge tags to attacks. Hot Head: Attacks during Hot Head actions in the passive are nearly unblockable [If Blocked still deals 25% extra damage] Most attacks deal 50%-ish dmg when blocked anyways lolChaotic Evil: Against non Chaotic enemies, attacks that hit in this action lower all traits by 25% for 2 posts and has a critical effect chance to keep them lowered permanently based on the level of attack used. Sounds cool but idk how meaningful it is.Sneak Action: Undodgable physical combos [fundamental techniques, whatever route we go] Speed Actions: +X% Speed and makes dodging easier + more speed for having more speed and + easier dodging for already having easier dodging? Unimaginative, but moving away from an extra action for the entirety of a battle is very important.Tactical Actions: +X% effectiveness on technique [Block or bonus damage] Hell, I'll post my idea on Speed and Tactical Actions too: [Speed and Tactician Actions Reworked] Speed Actions are gained the same way Speed Teleports are gained, but this is versus your opponent just like counters. So more like counters instead. If you have this amount more speed than your opponent, then you get this many Speed Actions that can be used per battle. Example Chart: Every 25,000 speed over your opponent you gain 1 speed action to the maximum of 5 per battle. Speed Actions make things easier to dodge or make physical feats (Physical or Hybrid Attacks) harder to dodge than they already were. Tactical Actions New. [Rework Tactician Passive] Tactical Actions are gained the same way Speed Actions are gained, but this is versus your opponent's Intelligence. Tactical Actions use cunning to avoid or block attacks or when used in junction with an attack (charging for instance) increase its effectiveness (maybe you are aiming for a weak spot or something). Defensively increase block/dodge effectivness by 5%. Offensively decrease opponents block/dodge effectiveness by 5%. [Tact Passive Rework] Level 1: You automatically gain 2 tactical actions per battle. Increase the effectiveness of your dodges/blocks to 10% instead of 5% [Decreases to opponents]. Level 2: Increase the effectiveness to 15%. Level 3. Increase the effectiveness to 22.5% This way, you don't really lose the advantage of speed or being smarter. The goal is making it actually feel more fluid when RPing defenses and offenses. It would be really good for pacing if there wasn't 1 million and 1 actions to deal with before you send back 500 thousand.
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Post by Vegeta on Feb 14, 2021 13:53:17 GMT -5
Ki Economy
Yea this is bad as well. It isn't extremely bad though. It takes a lot of get yourself to a point where ki percentage does not matter too much, but Ki spam isn't just because of actions. It is also because of how much ki can be saved while doing such spam. If you have -5% ki reduction and most effective attacks that deal damage being around the sweet spot of DR4 - DR6, then you have tossing of ki attacks with reckless abandon.
It will also discourage the use of physical attacks, and just adding physical attacks will definitely solve the Ki issue, but also will just turn it into a DR spam issue instead.
What's a good fix? I'm gunna get some questionable looks about this but lol. Who remembers Exhaustion?
It was annoying, but it definitely fixed spam. You didn't want to lose an action because you got trigger happy, but come on?
When you get trigger happy you have to reload right?
So honestly, bring that back and make it kind of like Immobilize with a twist. If you use 2 techniques with a DR5 or above in a row the next technique DR5 or above costs +1 action.
or this one.
If you use 2 techniques that cost more than 10% base ki in a row then the next attack has -1DR and easier to dodge.
Literally just came up with that on the fly.
Both of these concepts seems cool. I'm sure we could talk and tweak them to something that works, but bringing back Exhaustion (which was never around during my time on the game lol) seems like a smart direction.
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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 14:28:04 GMT -5
Physical Combos and Physical Techniques. From what I gather the idea is to experiment with moving away from physical combos and replace them with some experimental half action attacks (half action attack feedback is at the end of this post). This would add more physical techniques, which is good, and there is even an addition of a ki cost free basic attack option which is neat. The issue to me is how uneeded the change is and how complicated it makes things. Special Attack and Quick Attack should not be taken away and instead should just be assign a value on the Damage Rating Scale instead. Physical Techniques definitely should become 1 action techniques and we get full use of them as fundamentals. That alone will make physical fighters and fights better. The best way is to assign QA the very basic Damage Rating of 1 and then scale up from there. Increase the Damage Rating of everything by 1 to compensate for it, since the Damage Rating scale does not have an actual defined number of damage. The place caps to prevent too much overflow. Examples of some cap ideas would be. A physical combo = DR4 cap Fundamental = DR6 cap +1 per action Advanced = DR8 cap +1 per action Finishers = No cap [We don't lie around here] Because we have been in the DR system for so long, it looks like a lot, but its just an adjustment. Its more like name changing than boosting the quality of an attack. If you have 1% damage assigned to DR1 before hand, then you will just move that assignment over to DR2 to deal 1% and make DR1 deal 0.5% damage. That's just an example. My initial thought here is that I understand what you mean by shifting the damage scale, but the one you outlined doesn't do that correctly. A 2DR difference between Fundie and Advanced caps either severely overpowers Fundies, or severely underpowers Advanced.And yea that's it for me on this one. I could add more when I think on it but that's it far as physicals go. ---------------------------------------------------- Half Action or just anything that isn't 1 action. Yea I'll keep this as short as I can. Just something that is unneeded and is complicated for no reason. It sounds nice to combine 2 attacks in one action, but when you try and prevent abuse by drowning out the boosts they get, you get all this extra math you have to deal with. A 1.5 action cost just seems silly and adding a brand new mechanic to combine them with either themselves or another 0.5 action is a lot. It just feels better to keep everything as integers. Its a writing site and we should just keep math simple for ourselves. 0. anything that isn't a percentage value is complicated. Personal preference here. Oh no you are understanding correctly, the caps are examples and they are poor as fuck lol.
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Post by Holly on Feb 14, 2021 14:37:45 GMT -5
Damage Rating SystemI 100% feel that any DR system that applies a consistent ratio such as x2 or x1.5 is broken. It will always undervalue low DRs, or overvalue high DRs. That is, unless there is a reasonable amount of dmg that is also randomized (via dice). I see what you mean about the value. We don't have to agree on a flat scaling in the end. My main goal would be to have a base damage per DR set for all refs to use. Whether dice are used or in-depth stat comparisons is something that can and should still be up to the ref (and the fighters as well. Like an option that goes, yo we went dice or nah we don't want dice. If they can't agree then ref goes, "Well I do it how I want) But that opinion definitely helps set reasons why the consistent ratio can be an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 15:14:13 GMT -5
Thank you for this write up.
We've been discussing a few of these things already and tossing ideas around, but there's a lot of good ideas and more importantly, actual explanation and thought behind why you disagree and how you suggest we might fix it. This helps us pinpoint issues and disliked mechanics more easily instead of having us shooting in the dark. That's invaluable.
The two biggest monsters here imo are the DR system and the action economy. A double DR system has never really worked well and it never will. I know there's been some "official" test runs done with a new DR system (I think it was 50% or 75% increases per level, or maybe both) and I feel that's our collective bad for not placing a priority on getting this figured out and finalizing something. There should just be a better way of doing things than "I only want this ref because their damage system isn't crazy high," and we need to stop fucking around and prioritize this.
Action economy is a huge monster in itself and I feel attributes in large part to the ki spam issue you brought up (though I will say the reduced DR for firing too many ki attacks per turn is also really appealing.) I also really like your suggestion for the speed change! Having a handful of plain extra actions you can use during the battle would be a good change, it definitely should never have been an action that was ever present.
Majority of the additional action sources that you listed are things I believe we are on board with removing or changing, and though we haven't had a chance to discuss their alternatives I see some really good ideas.
We've made some changes to the proposed changes to physicals based on some of the received feedback but moving forward this is the kind of feedback we need to see. Third party feedback doesn't help at all so again, thank you for putting together a comprehensive list of thoughts, gripes and suggestions.
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Post by Gohan on Feb 14, 2021 16:05:03 GMT -5
Thank you for this write up. We've been discussing a few of these things already and tossing ideas around, but there's a lot of good ideas and more importantly, actual explanation and thought behind why you disagree and how you suggest we might fix it. This helps us pinpoint issues and disliked mechanics more easily instead of having us shooting in the dark. That's invaluable. The two biggest monsters here imo are the DR system and the action economy. A double DR system has never really worked well and it never will. I know there's been some "official" test runs done with a new DR system (I think it was 50% or 75% increases per level, or maybe both) and I feel that's our collective bad for not placing a priority on getting this figured out and finalizing something. There should just be a better way of doing things than "I only want this ref because their damage system isn't crazy high," and we need to stop fucking around and prioritize this. Action economy is a huge monster in itself and I feel attributes in large part to the ki spam issue you brought up (though I will say the reduced DR for firing too many ki attacks per turn is also really appealing.) I also really like your suggestion for the speed change! Having a handful of plain extra actions you can use during the battle would be a good change, it definitely should never have been an action that was ever present. Majority of the additional action sources that you listed are things I believe we are on board with removing or changing, and though we haven't had a chance to discuss their alternatives I see some really good ideas. We've made some changes to the proposed changes to physicals based on some of the received feedback but moving forward this is the kind of feedback we need to see. Third party feedback doesn't help at all so again, thank you for putting together a comprehensive list of thoughts, gripes and suggestions.Just emphasizing this point. There's a lot of stuff that's not functioning as well as it can, and we're always trying to get that touched up. There are things that are maybe not as refined as they could be, or things that have grown obsolete over the many years that this RPG has gone on. If you have comments, let us know -- that's what the questions and suggestions forum and discord channels are for. We're asking for feedback on some proposed physical changes, but out of everyone who's done test battles we have gotten feedback from like 3 people. Please understand that we're all trying to make this site more enjoyable for the players who have brought it this far, but we can't do that if you keep things to yourselves.
Looking forward to more well-thought-out posts like this.
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