Tien
Grizzled Veteran
I'm Digu
Posts: 555
Race: Human
Soul: Main
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Post by Tien on Jul 14, 2020 16:22:33 GMT -5
HP: Equal to your stat tiers + 25.
Powerlevel: Equal to all of your stats combined.
Ki: Determines energy attack damage.
Strength: Determines physical attack damage.
Speed: Determines character movement speed.
Toughness: Determines damage reduction.
Stamina: Determines combat drain.
Vitality: Determines extra HP.
Stat Tiers:
Tier 1: 0-49,999
Tier 2: 50,000-149,999
Tier 3: 150,000-299,999
Tier 4: 300,000-499,999
Tier 5: 500,000-749,999
Tier 6: 750,000+
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HP: Each DR taken = -1 Health
PL: Nothing more than a number to represent how strong you are. Does not play into any kind of calculations of any kind.
Ki: Increases DR of energy attacks by the difference in your Ki tier and the opponent's Toughness tier.
Strength: Increases DR of physical attacks by the difference in your Strength tier and the opponent's Toughness tier.
Speed: If three levels higher than opponent's speed tier, all attacks are undodgable. Two levels higher, only partial dodges are possible.
Toughness: Decreases the DR of incoming attacks by the difference in your Toughness tier, and their attack stat tier.
Stamina: Decreases by 1% for each % of Ki used. [Overflow: 1% Ki Used = -2% remaining stats.] Each Stamina tier above 1 adds another 5% before Overflow kicks in.
Vitality: Increases HP by your Vitality tier x2.
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OR
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We take a hard stance rn and move back towards RP-centric battles. Mechanics become secondary, and if you can write the hell out of it, you can do it. (More or less). That would make it far easier for just about *anyone* to ref, and there would be far less debate back and forth over if something is allowed. If the ref reads it and it works for them, then it works in the battle. If you feel like your ref aint being fair to you, request another.
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Mila
Story Teller
Posts: 1,153
Organization: Kelioux Scholars
Race: Android
Status: Open Roleplays
Soul: Major Second
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Post by Mila on Jul 14, 2020 18:22:59 GMT -5
This is cool, working on a new system is always interesting. This is definitely like a Super Patch worthy thing too, because a lot will go into re-balancing the site to conform to this system. People will have to understand that our Power Levels will shrink. It isn't a bad thing, because it happens to everybody and the power scale will still be the same, so that shouldn't be an issue. Super Form requirements would need to be tweaked and anything that is stat focused would need to be looked at.
But it's a fresh change. I'm not too much against it at all. Everyone gets to have a fresh outlook on their characters as well, especially the older members who have put so much time into the site and feel they want to rebalance some things. As you did mention, this is a raw idea and I'm going to re-stress that it is definitely a work in progress thing. The shell of the idea is amazing though. With work, it has potential to make this site really fun and straight to the point.
I like it. I want to see it get worked on.
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Post by Lilim on Jul 15, 2020 5:38:41 GMT -5
Seconded--I particularly like the set up with how the stats interact with one another, even if it's just a rough draft. Additionally, introducing Tiers can allow a lot of stat boosting things (Transformations, Equipment, passives, etc) to instead increase your stat Tier in battle instead of by a %, making it easier to use and better to balance overall.
I would personally recommend tiers break up at each 100,000 though, just to make it easier. Anything less than 100,000 would be Tier 0, just for simplicity's sake.
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Bishop
Fabled Member
Posts: 721
Race: Android
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Post by Bishop on Jul 15, 2020 7:22:20 GMT -5
I like this a lot and would also like to see RP heavy battles as well as stat battles.
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Post by Lilim on Jul 15, 2020 8:53:30 GMT -5
Questions:
HP. Does this equal the combined total of all of your current stat tiers? For example, if I have a Tier 5 in all stats, would this be 5+5+5+5+5+5 (30) + 25 = 55 HP, or is this the highest of your tiers (5) + 25 = 30 HP? This is just for clarification. Also, does this mean Vitality counts twice (meaning first example becomes 60 HP and second example becomes 35 HP)?
Suggestions:
Power Level. If this has no mechanical significance other than just indicating your total stat points (and therefore, your overall tier) then I would propose that things that boost stats (and therefore, PL) in Battle (such as Transformations, Equipment, Passives, etc) instead boost stats by Tier rather than by a %. For example, Street Fighter Level 1 Passive would boost Strength by +1 Tier rather than by +10%. This makes such things easier to use, easier to calculate, and easier to balance with other similar abilities and powers. This would make passives more balanced between a Tier 5 character and a Tier 55 character (if both had the same passive--Level 1 Street Fighter gives both characters the same benefit, rather than the Tier 55 character gaining an inflated benefit).
Tiers.
Tier 0 = 0 - 99,999
Tier 1 = 100,000 - 199,999
Tier 2 = 200,000 - 299,999
Etc
Unless the point is to cap stats at Tier 10 or something, keeping it open-ended means we need to make sure it's simple to understand, and therefore, making the Tier equal to the 100,000 numeral makes it easy to identify what your stat's Tier is. Additionally, because we put emphasis on starting characters at Tier 0, it makes sure that they're early battles focus on just the fundamentals of the battle system, and then as they start to hit Tier 1 stats, then the stat interactions come into play for them, easing them into how it all interacts.
Ki%.
Since we are making Ki it's own proper stat (with proper mechanics), I would suggest removing Ki% as a mechanic entirely, instead making the only limit to technique use being just your Stamina.
Speed.
I would suggest the following:
Hard to Dodge if speed is 2 Tiers higher.
Very Hard to Dodge if speed is 3 Tiers or Higher.
Only partial dodges if speed is 4 Tiers or Higher.
Undodgeable if speed is 5 Tiers Higher or Double (whichever is higher).
I think this would make speed a bit less important and make the other stats a bit more important by extension.
Stamina.
You might change Stamina to 'Reduces the Ki Cost of techniques you perform by 0.5% per tier' instead of the Overflow thing, whichever you think is simpler or, perhaps, making it a comparison to another stat like Toughness vs Strength / Ki? I feel like we could do better with Stamina.
Stat Interactions.
Right now, with this proposal, Strength and Ki both directly interact with toughness. Speed has a very obscure interaction that might need better qualification. Stamina is also obscurely interacting with Strength and Ki through techniques, as does Vitality. We might need more direct comparisons between Stamina, Speed, and Vitality somehow. Not sure how though, might be best to keep those 3 obscure in their interaction.
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Bramble
Story Teller
Posts: 1,179 
Organization: Planet Trade Organization
Race: Alien
Status: Contact Me
Soul: Major Second
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Post by Bramble on Jul 15, 2020 9:34:59 GMT -5
Hmmm, I currently see this system not allowing what had been suggested as possible- the slim chance someone inferior to your battle power being able to win. That's always been a Dragon Ball thing. As it looks now, this battle system becomes rather mechanical. You can RP poorly but still win because you simply have more stats and anyone less than that, to a certain degree, has no chance. They won't have the HP, Strength, Toughness, nor Speed to compete.
Note that this is in regards to the current raw system and not a refined version.
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Bardock
Veteran Member
Posts: 359
Soul: Main
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Post by Bardock on Jul 15, 2020 11:15:33 GMT -5
The second option has always made more sense to me. As long as the combatants aren't doing anything egregious (Deflecting a fully charged 10x Kamehameha) then it should be fair game.
The issue is that mechanically you have to double check interactions between techs and items and see if a move is legal or not and blah blah blah and that's annoying.
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Post by Gohan on Jul 15, 2020 11:45:17 GMT -5
So I took a look at this when it got posted, let it simmer overnight, and now I got some thoughts I wanna share. The tier list, while simplifying how stats could work practically in battle, will definitely be oppressive. Some cheesy methods could potentially let a lower tier fighter come out on top, but I don't see this as a wholly constructive addition. Like Hayami said, once someone is 2 or 3 tiers ahead in everything on a balanced build, it's just going to lock people out. A possible solution to that would be to keep the tiers for simplicity but remove HP since that is the worst offender in locking lower strength fighters from taking on higher tier ones. There will just be an insurmountable wall keeping someone from winning with hard HP and predetermined damage, and that turns fighting into a formula instead of a story. I'm generally fine with how the other tiers work, but would like to suggest some changes (keeping in mind that I don't think HP should exist, so DRs and damage would function as they do now): KiI really like making Ki a standard stat and having it directly affect the damage of energy attacks. It'll absolutely fuck with stat distributions as they are now, but it makes it so you actually have a CHOICE whether or not to fight physically or not. Big fan. StrengthYES! Give physical attacks real DR other than the 1 DR that fisti users have. Make Kular builds widely possible again! I can see countless ways to make the Aggressive style useful with this as well, and am happy to go into detail with some of those later/if asked. SpeedDifference in stats should never make all attacks undodgeable. If there's a significant enough difference, adding a "hard to dodge" tag to physical/hybrid attacks is the furthest I could see it going without being oppressive. This just further propagates the "speed is king" mentality. ToughnessI'm generally a fan. Decreasing DRs with high Tou tiers seems like a dream for tanky fighters, and as long as the tiers are spaced widely enough I don't see this being too overwhelming. That being said, something I became aware of recently is the idea of Tou having a reduced effect when attacks are taken to the face. We see this enforced over and over in the anime, and it makes sense from a real world fighting point-of-view as well. Blocking needs to be important, and halving Tou difference effects while taking attacks could be a fantastic way to do that. StaminaThis one is kinda weird if Ki Mastery is still a thing. It'd promote a serious hardcap on when to stop putting stats into Sta since ki loss wouldn't scale with your overall stat totals, and that cap would be incredibly low (mathing it in my head right now makes me think on the scale of ~200 total could be optimal). Stamina drain needs to scale with a player's PL somehow. Alternatively, if KM has a reduced effect or is no longer a thing, Sta becomes the most important stat to a ki-based fighter, which puts it in a weird spot for balancing. VitalityNo HP so I'm coming up with entirely my own suggestion here. Treating Vit as a health bar in the past hasn't worked very well, but I think it could if we can agree on a sitewide DR scale. Adjusting attack damage for RP is super important though, and can't be overlooked. Example: If I wrote "Garou's fists struck endlessly at Vash's stupid face" and that was it to describe 4 QAs, that should OBVIOUSLY be worth less than writing something like "Furious blows struck tirelessly at Vash's face, a combination of jabs and hooks working around the demon's guard to wipe away his cocky smile by force". If the DR for physical attacks is based at 2 for me due to strength tier and fisticuffs, I would personally be inclined to go so far as to halve the damage from the first one (if it was uncharacteristically bad RP) or double for the second (if it was particularly fantastic RP). A unique idea for Vit if we want a more generalized health would be to make it affect crits/stuns, or making it increase health/ki restoration from techs/items. I admit I have the least idea of what to do with Vit as a stat though, I just know that making an HP system like you have above is going to cripple lower-PL fighters when they already have a disadvantage. |
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Post by Lilim on Jul 15, 2020 12:18:48 GMT -5
The second option has always made more sense to me. As long as the combatants aren't doing anything egregious (Deflecting a fully charged 10x Kamehameha) then it should be fair game. The issue is that mechanically you have to double check interactions between techs and items and see if a move is legal or not and blah blah blah and that's annoying. Then why even have stats to begin with? I'm honestly curious, because if the strength of the battle is purely narrative and the ability to write, then better writers will always win. One portion of the site says 'duh, it's a writing site' but another part of the site will say 'I have double the stats of my opponent in all regards, I should obviously win.' The system we have in place right now is the best way to reconcile these two points of view. If writing ability and narrative are so important, why are we just doing the numbers game with updates? Just to have something to do? That seems asinine to me. Also, The more stuff that exists in a battle system, the more complicated it will be. If you don't want complication in a battle system, maybe something like Pokemon is more up your alley? I don't mean that in a negative way, just saying that there's going to be complexity in a system like we have no matter what, its conveying what does what accurately that becomes important. |
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Post by Lilim on Jul 15, 2020 12:33:25 GMT -5
So I took a look at this when it got posted, let it simmer overnight, and now I got some thoughts I wanna share. The tier list, while simplifying how stats could work practically in battle, will definitely be oppressive. Some cheesy methods could potentially let a lower tier fighter come out on top, but I don't see this as a wholly constructive addition. Like Hayami said, once someone is 2 or 3 tiers ahead in everything on a balanced build, it's just going to lock people out. So will a disparaging degree in terms of writing. Which gap matters more? Stats, writing, both? If the argument is that the status quo is the best compromise available, then I don't see anything wrong with making sure the current system is still the best compromise. Then we can definitely remove that portion of the Tier differential. It's more an explanation of what each stat could do and how we could simplify interactions. If making attacks undodgeable with that difference of speed is unthinkable, then we could probably cap it off as necessary. I'm not entirely opposed to this idea, but it is extremely punishing and it emphasizes the action economy a lot more. I think we'd just remove Ki Mastery and refund the SP, honestly. And the fact that having Ki Spammers require 2 stats to prioritize isnt the end of the world--in fact that would make the system a bit healthier, at least from a game design perspective. Honestly, if the consensus is 'No HP', then we should remove vitality altogether. It steps on what Toughness does or what Stamina does otherwise, thematically speaking. If HP is such a dreaded and reviled concept, then we should basically just replace Vitality with Ki. As it stands, because we're not allowed to quantify someone's health in any reasonable manner, we shouldn't have the stat to begin with. Personally, Im just sick and tired of Schrodinger's Damage, where it's absolutely unknown how hurt you are until either a ref does something arbitrary to determine that (every ref calculates it differently, making any sort of judgement unreliable and subjective) or a Death Crit happens. (We could attach Death Crit to every Finisher, tho). If the idea is to simplify the system so that it's easier to understand and use, then I feel like the overall proposal works, especially if we couple it with a lot of technique and ability changes to take advantage of the simplicity. |
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Post by Gohan on Jul 15, 2020 12:49:25 GMT -5
The way I've always seen things in the entire time I've been here has been that stats are a baseline. Writing quality should be the most important part, with stats informing both parties who has the inherent advantage. Otherwise what's the point in polishing one's writing at all, just spit out 400k words of run-on sentences a month and beast on the entire goddamn site with your impossible to understand actions and innate PL?
Changing almost everything about the system is inherently not a simplification, made worse by changing all the techs/abilities that players built their current kits around. People will get super confused about all the tech changes and try to do something wrong, and someone or something will break in a bad way. Personally I also like the overall proposal, but there needs to be more thought going into it and it should be a wide consensus -- this is changing the foundation of battling on the site.
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Bardock
Veteran Member
Posts: 359
Soul: Main
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Post by Bardock on Jul 15, 2020 12:52:20 GMT -5
The second option has always made more sense to me. As long as the combatants aren't doing anything egregious (Deflecting a fully charged 10x Kamehameha) then it should be fair game. The issue is that mechanically you have to double check interactions between techs and items and see if a move is legal or not and blah blah blah and that's annoying. Then why even have stats to begin with? I'm honestly curious, because if the strength of the battle is purely narrative and the ability to write, then better writers will always win. One portion of the site says 'duh, it's a writing site' but another part of the site will say 'I have double the stats of my opponent in all regards, I should obviously win.' The system we have in place right now is the best way to reconcile these two points of view. If writing ability and narrative are so important, why are we just doing the numbers game with updates? Just to have something to do? That seems asinine to me. Also, The more stuff that exists in a battle system, the more complicated it will be. If you don't want complication in a battle system, maybe something like Pokemon is more up your alley? I don't mean that in a negative way, just saying that there's going to be complexity in a system like we have no matter what, its conveying what does what accurately that becomes important. So let's make something clear here. Having the ability to beat someone that is stronger than you is literally stated as a possibility on the main site.Even in Pokemon a lower level one can beat a higher level one depending on what type they are. So.... |
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Post by Lilim on Jul 15, 2020 12:57:27 GMT -5
The way I've always seen things in the entire time I've been here has been that stats are a baseline. Writing quality should be the most important part, with stats informing both parties who has the inherent advantage. Otherwise what's the point in polishing one's writing at all, just spit out 400k words of run-on sentences a month and beast on the entire goddamn site with your impossible to understand actions and innate PL? You realize you can apply that same argument to writing and stats right? Why ever bother doing updates if you can just write circles around someone ad nauseam? It makes updates seem utterly pointless at that point. The reason this proposal exists is because some people are dissatisfied with the way combat works on the site on a foundational level. You can count me in that group as well. While yes, I won't want to implement anything without having a majority in favor of it, I don't particularly see this as increasing complication. I can do PodCasts, explanations, etc, whatever is necessary to guide people into the new system if the majority are in favor of this proposal, regardless of whether or not people screech about #notastrategyguide. Making sure that information is conveyed properly will easily remedy most forms of confusion. |
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Post by Lilim on Jul 15, 2020 13:00:52 GMT -5
Then why even have stats to begin with? I'm honestly curious, because if the strength of the battle is purely narrative and the ability to write, then better writers will always win. One portion of the site says 'duh, it's a writing site' but another part of the site will say 'I have double the stats of my opponent in all regards, I should obviously win.' The system we have in place right now is the best way to reconcile these two points of view. If writing ability and narrative are so important, why are we just doing the numbers game with updates? Just to have something to do? That seems asinine to me. Also, The more stuff that exists in a battle system, the more complicated it will be. If you don't want complication in a battle system, maybe something like Pokemon is more up your alley? I don't mean that in a negative way, just saying that there's going to be complexity in a system like we have no matter what, its conveying what does what accurately that becomes important. So let's make something clear here. Having the ability to beat someone that is stronger than you is literally stated as a possibility on the main site.You know what's also listed on the site? Dying instantly to a DR 13. If I bumped an attack to DR 13, made it undodgeable, and hit you with it? That would stone-wall you even more than the presence of stats ever could. That was not the point you were making, you were complaining about checking what techniques and actions were legal and proclaimed it as 'annoying'. I was responding to that comment. |
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Bardock
Veteran Member
Posts: 359
Soul: Main
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Post by Bardock on Jul 15, 2020 13:08:05 GMT -5
So let's make something clear here. Having the ability to beat someone that is stronger than you is literally stated as a possibility on the main site.You know what's also listed on the site? Dying instantly to a DR 13. If I bumped an attack to DR 13, made it undodgeable, and hit you with it? That would stone-wall you even more than the presence of stats ever could. That was not the point you were making, you were complaining about checking what techniques and actions were legal and proclaimed it as 'annoying'. I was responding to that comment. Moot point but go off. Don't conflate "complicated" with "convoluted". |
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