Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 13:20:43 GMT -5
Then why even have stats to begin with? I'm honestly curious, because if the strength of the battle is purely narrative and the ability to write, then better writers will always win. One portion of the site says 'duh, it's a writing site' but another part of the site will say 'I have double the stats of my opponent in all regards, I should obviously win.' The system we have in place right now is the best way to reconcile these two points of view. If writing ability and narrative are so important, why are we just doing the numbers game with updates? Just to have something to do? That seems asinine to me. Also, The more stuff that exists in a battle system, the more complicated it will be. If you don't want complication in a battle system, maybe something like Pokemon is more up your alley? I don't mean that in a negative way, just saying that there's going to be complexity in a system like we have no matter what, its conveying what does what accurately that becomes important. So let's make something clear here. Having the ability to beat someone that is stronger than you is literally stated as a possibility on the main site.Even in Pokemon a lower level one can beat a higher level one depending on what type they are. So.... Bro... did you just use Pokémon as a point in your argument... Christ... 😂🤣
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 13:34:47 GMT -5
Like Garou, I wanted to stare at this for a bit before actually responding to it. I've been staring at this for a while and going over some mock battles with the system in mind. We've already spoken at some length about how this is basically Pokemon with a simpler coat of paint put on it, so I may parrot a couple points here and there, but I want to get my piece out of the way.
What people often forget about video games is that there are either nuances put into the formulas that we, the player, are unaware of to create variation in combat.. or the numbers are very, very clear and put you into the mindset of "What point do I need to build to in order to conquer the situation I'm in?"
There is a vast majority of people that would easily fall into the latter mindset. I don't care what kind of counterargument you deliver or what is said or 'we'd never do that's that I hear. You're all going to make attempts to game the system because that's what everyone tries to do now, whether they admit to it or not. I know it pains you to all be called out like such, but that's the honest to god truth.
This system will just make it easier.
If you make the Tiers too vast (like PAIN's iteration), then people will feel discouraged toward building their stats up. If it takes most people years to even hop up a single tier in the system, they're not going to like battling at all. What's the point if your ability to fight becomes stagnant for a long ass time because you're not more useful than you were last fight, even with all this PL you built up?
If you make the Tiers too thin, it becomes irrelevant in the first place.
> What's your suggestion then, fucker?
You want it to play like a video game, yet account for people who can write their heart out. So let's do that.
HP: Vitality Tier x 2 Stamina: Vitality Tier + ((Toughness Tier + Focus Tier) / 2) Exhaustion: Used Stamina with cap of 75% Stamina's Cap
Strength: Raw physical power. Increases Physical DMG. Ki: Raw energy-based ability. Increases Energy DMG. Toughness: Defensive capability. Reduces Physical DMG. Focus (Retooled from Stamina): Spiritual capability. Reduces Energy DMG. Vitality: Life force. Increases HP.
> Adjusted Tiers Stat Tier = Stat / 1,000
> Retooled Stamina Aside from making Stamina into Focus for the sake of having an energy-based defense stat (having a catch all is not modern at all, all decently made games have varying resistances for varying damage types), I decided that it might be best to make it into something of a mana pool for people.
Instead of having a Ki percent like we have been, I'm proposing we make a Stamina pool. It's a combination of your life force and defensive capabilities-- the extent of what your body can endure using. We also introduce Exhaustion, which is your used Stamina and will link directly toward lowering your stats and the idea of regenerating Stamina every turn-- let's say 10% of total Stamina.
My stats under my current system look like this:
HP: 426 Stamina: 427 / 427 Exhaustion: 0 / 320
Strength: 213 Ki: 213 Speed: 220 Toughness: 213 Focus: 214 Vitality: 213
Let's say I use these following actions: 1.) Blast Punch [-3% Stamina] 2.) Sokidan [-3% Stamina] 3.) Serafin Punch [-4% Stamina] 4.) Super Dodonpa [-7% Stamina]
I used 17% of my Stamina pool. So I lose 72 stamina (rounded down).
HP: 426 Stamina: 355 / 427 Exhaustion: 72 / 320
Turn 2, I bust out this badass action list.
1-2.) Charged Big Tree Cannon [-17% Stamina] 3.) Dark Kamehameha [-10% Stamina] 4.) Fusion Beam [-11% Stamina]
I used a lot! I used 38% of my Stamina pool, so I lose 162 stamina which is added to my Exhaustion. I regen 10% of my max Stamina thanks to it being a new turn, so I also gain back 43 stamina (rounded up).
HP: 426 Stamina: 236 / 427 [355 - 162 + 43] Exhaustion: 234 / 320 [72 + 162]
So we have an idea of how the math works turn to turn. Now I'll go over two different situations that could happen: what if you run out of Stamina and what if you reach your Exhaustion cap.
> The Stamina Cap If you manage to run out of stamina in a turn, you don't surpass the cap. You can't overuse stamina, and if you don't have enough stamina, you're unable to use the move, full stop. You'll have to wait some turns for your stamina to regenerate before you can attack again, but you can regain that energy while defending at least (Super taught us that one!).
> The Exhaustion Cap and Surpassing It Exhaustion, however, is a different beast entirely. You can very much pass the Exhaustion cap, and when you do, your body is going to start crippling itself. You will lose stats directly correlating with how far you surpassed your exhaustion cap * two., and it will start from your highest stat onward. In my case, my highest stat is Speed.
So..
Exhaustion: 380 / 320 [60 beyond Cap]
Speed: 160 [220 base - 120 from Exhaustion]
If you keep using stamina with your exhausted body, your body will crumple faster and faster.
Exhaustion: 500 / 320 [180 beyond Cap]
Speed: 0 [220 base - 220 from Exhaustion] Focus: 74 [214 base - 140 from Exhaustion]
I believe this will also discourage people from trying to pump everything into a single stat, as it will be the first to go whenever you deplete your sources. Resting would allow you to regenerate 10% of your Exhaustion Cap, but if you're attacked the turn after you rest, you only regenerate 5% per action you sacrificed to rest (still gives some wiggle room but leaves you open to your opponent dictating the rhythm of the fight).
> How does roleplaying play into any of this? This is just a bunch of math!
You are so very right.
Roleplaying gives you a boost as far as the Roleplaying Award goes, increasing your stats directly and rewarding you for being the best within your battle.. and if you're weaker, it will give you a massive boost and keep you on par with your opponent!
That's why I'd also like to introduce something called the Literary Boost. Alongside the RP Award, the person receiving it will also receive a Literary Boost per turn that they hold the award, making them have up to 3 uses of such a boost (cannot used more than one in a turn, can't be stockpiled!).
With the new system that's desired, every attack or defense will have some sort of stat tacked onto it, whether its a damaging stat, defensive stat or dodging stat. So the Literary Boost will do one of three things:
1.) Increase the stat associated with an action by 50% (if attack, it's the offensive stat. if defense, defensive stat. if dodge, speed.) 2.) Regens an extra 10% stamina on top of normal turn regen. 3.) Regens 5% exhaustion based on exhaustion cap.
I believe this will make the RP Award a lot more game changing, either amplifying the things they already do or allowing them to regain resources and get themselves back into the game.
Obviously there's a lot of work to be done on this system but I really do think it may be a step in the right direction. Feedback is welcome because I'm not sure everyone would be a fan of this one, but I feel like this is a smidgen closer to allowing roleplay to be impactful while still letting stats be the relevant identifier of whether or not you've got the advantage.
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Bardock
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Post by Bardock on Jul 15, 2020 14:43:52 GMT -5
^This is cute and all but revamping the entire system is a lot more work than just reverting to a more heavily RP based system where refs calculate damage and RP is king but mechanics are an integral part as well. We had a lot fewer complaints back then, people actually battled more. And by more I mean a lot more, it was funner, and just an overall more pleasant system.
The biggest obstacle is damage, and calculating vit drain. But that was always dependent on the ref anyways and it's hard to make a black and white system when RP isn't black and white.
Everyone who was around back then (including you LUL' nyguah), enjoyed it before Rem came along.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 14:49:53 GMT -5
^This is cute and all but revamping the entire system is a lot more work than just reverting to a more heavily RP based system where refs calculate damage and RP is king but mechanics are an integral part as well. We had a lot fewer complaints back then, people actually battled more. And by more I mean a lot more, it was funner, and just an overall more pleasant system. The biggest obstacle is damage, and calculating vit drain. But that was always dependent on the ref anyways and it's hard to make a black and white system when RP isn't black and white. Everyone who was around back then (including you LUL' nyguah), enjoyed it before Rem came along. If damage is subjective and opinion-based, people will cry about biased refs. Anyone who does not allow them to win is biased for not enjoying their quality. Standards change. People change. I was around back then and liked the system back then. I also like the one I proposed because it leaves less room for people to whine. People on the site at the present moment do not have the collective maturity level to handle damage being subjective. If anyone is offended by that comment, I ask for you to reflect on why it hurts you. Referees should be there to make sure rules don't get broken and that things are calculated correctly, refs shouldn't be one of the definitive factors to how your entire battle plays out. That's stupid, full stop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 14:57:19 GMT -5
I actually find myself agreeing
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Bardock
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Post by Bardock on Jul 15, 2020 15:00:12 GMT -5
^This is cute and all but revamping the entire system is a lot more work than just reverting to a more heavily RP based system where refs calculate damage and RP is king but mechanics are an integral part as well. We had a lot fewer complaints back then, people actually battled more. And by more I mean a lot more, it was funner, and just an overall more pleasant system. The biggest obstacle is damage, and calculating vit drain. But that was always dependent on the ref anyways and it's hard to make a black and white system when RP isn't black and white. Everyone who was around back then (including you LUL' nyguah), enjoyed it before Rem came along. If damage is subjective and opinion-based, people will cry about biased refs. Anyone who does not allow them to win is biased for not enjoying their quality. Standards change. People change. I was around back then and liked the system back then. I also like the one I proposed because it leaves less room for people to whine. People on the site at the present moment do not have the collective maturity level to handle damage being subjective. If anyone is offended by that comment, I ask for you to reflect on why it hurts you. Referees should be there to make sure rules don't get broken and that things are calculated correctly, refs shouldn't be one of the definitive factors to how your entire battle plays out. That's stupid, full stop. Whenever your ref does something you disagree with, all you have to do is request a different one. That's standard practice. Revamping everything and then adding new items is a Compulsive Changer move. Heaven forbid people have to RP on a you know....RP site. Mister "prolific" writer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 15:03:44 GMT -5
Requesting a new ref is not standard practice... never has been. This was a whole convo last night. It’s def something staff would not let be abused so let’s stop making shit up.
If you can’t reply to comments without snide ass remarks and keep it on point then stop responding and drink some ice cold water.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 15:10:15 GMT -5
When the argument becomes 'get a new ref' vs 'fix why refs are a problem', then there's an issue.
I roleplay more than anyone on the site, but even I'm not going to sit and preach that an RP-centric system is a good idea. In the current climate of the site, I can't even quantify how bad of an idea it is.
I understand and respect the stance that you're taking, but no game has ever grown from stagnation in their systems. You said it's a Compulsive Changer thing to do, but I can site so many video games that have benefitted from changing their formulas, evolving what they do, adding new things and removing what didn't work or retooling what needed tweaks. Fuck, the game we play the most, League of Legends, does this ALL the time.
When we said things were being revamped and items were being added, it was because Ki was a brand new stat altogether. Items would need to be added so things could boost Ki just like the other stats. If we did add it on, then we would need those items to keep everything balanced. It's like when armor penetration was replaced with lethality, they had to make new items and revamp old ones to account for the change.
I feel like we simply won't see eye to eye on these particular changes, and that's fine. I love you, buddy. I think we both said our piece, so let's just let it simmer and let others participate in it.
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Mila
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Post by Mila on Jul 15, 2020 15:35:19 GMT -5
I totally did not want to get involved because I was lazy. I'll jump in now, but I'm still lazy.
RP Battle System --------------- Pros: You get to challenge yourself by attempting to out-word your opponent. Write as perfect as possible and catching the referee's mind with your excellent descriptions and attempt at realistic depiction of how damage is taken and given. It reads good. It sound is good. It's a story unfolding.
Cons: Opinions. Fear of Bias. Constant bickering about how "unrealistic" a certain move is. Every person has a different view point. Changing Referee's in the middle of a battle will cause headaches. You can't win over everyone with your writing. Someone could be confused at your wording or not even understand your flow. When it comes to competition you are always trying to win. Everyone thinks they are the main character of their own story, so why wouldn't you win?
Mechanics Battle System ------------------------
Pros: Straight to the point. Excellent in competitive battling, there is a clear telling of attacks that hit or miss and what effects it will have on your character's body. Your hard work in stat building is seen and pays off. Pushes other players to actually want to have some kind of stat advantage. Less need to ask for rulings for things such as dodges or how much damage you really took, it is. More a need for the chance things, status effects and what not.
Cons: It's rigid. Not much effort HAS to go into RPing unless a system is put in place to reward good RP.
Okay there are obviously more Pros and Cons to each but again lazy, but for real if you want my opinion on this matter. We have gotten competitive. We need a competitive style combat system. We are changing battles, and not OS's or PSagas' or anything else that is RP-eccentric.
If you want to have a RP style battle, then we can have regular RP Tournaments. But far as battles go, it should be mechanic based. We have too many things that make need of a mechanical competitive style. We have rare items that could be snuck for, and you'd hate to have lost it because the ref liked someone else's writing better (Again we all have different views) . We have obvious competition between alliances and people too. It's time we stop depending on a third party to tell us who won, and we win for ourselves.
It’s not like we can’t make room for both styles of play. We can have 2 different battle systems. One for when we have to get serious and competitive, and one for when we are trying to build a story off of it.
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Bardock
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Post by Bardock on Jul 15, 2020 15:41:34 GMT -5
I apologize for any snide remarks or comments that I have made.
For the record, it wasn't uncommon to request a new ref if there were any disagreements. There's evidence of this. So with that, I am not wrong.
I fundamentally disagree with the idea that on an RP site, mechanics should overrule writing ability, because people here grew as writers so that they could get better for battles. Once upon a time, people saved their real writing ability for battles. Now that is sadly not the case because it has been heavily bogged down by mechanics.
Good writing should be rewarded beyond stats. It should reward you with outcomes that aren't likely to happen by someone who put in minimum effort and creativity into their posts.
Anyways, that's my take on it.
I love you all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 15:51:45 GMT -5
I apologize for any snide remarks or comments that I have made. For the record, it wasn't uncommon to request a new ref if there were any disagreements. There's evidence of this. So with that, I am not wrong. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that on an RP site, mechanics should overrule writing ability, because people here grew as writers so that they could get better for battles. Once upon a time, people saved their real writing ability for battles. Now that is sadly not the case because it has been heavily bogged down by mechanics. Good writing should be rewarded beyond stats. It should reward you with outcomes that aren't likely to happen by someone who put in minimum effort and creativity into their posts. Anyways, that's my take on it. I love you all. I’ll point out that perhaps years ago it was an issue. But you have time gaps galore homie. It’s a dead point now. Your opinion is noted. You are entitled to it.
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