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Post by Yan Cass on Aug 19, 2023 13:12:28 GMT -5
We’ve been talking for a long time about removing Tactician since no passive should be a must need and ultimately it gets stalled on this question: how many base actions should we have? With Tact, base actions after the RP award are five and its what a lot of people are comfortable with, especially with Tact 3. However with most thing adhering to the 7 action cap, less actions might be better at this point to make them more impactful? Or would post options feel annoyingly limited with 4 base? Please consider the last time you fought without Tact, or try and envision it now and don’t just say 4. Its a noticeable difference.
Votes obviously, but please reply to your reasoning as well.
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Post by Puar on Aug 19, 2023 13:39:13 GMT -5
4 should remain the base, that is what I vote on. I wanted to do a thing where action increaser's mattered. Also wanted to make Forms better -- this right here helps out with both of those in one sitting.
4 base would make action increasers more needed, and also would make Deca Form better. Tri-Form MIGHT get a bit out of hand though? That is the only concern.
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Post by Puar on Aug 19, 2023 14:29:47 GMT -5
But wouldn't keeping it at 4 make the removal of tactician pointless than? The point of removing tact is removing the need for a passive to have an action advantage. There is now incentive to keeping it at 4 base for me with two systems I wanted to rework and won't have to with just the removal of tact. Hindsight, Tact is the reason for a lot of imbalances. |
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Post by Yan Cass on Aug 19, 2023 15:37:23 GMT -5
I disagree. Hot Head is an extra action the first two posts which is a far cry from every post. There are items that can do that and the first post at least is completely saturated in post increasers so I would be very surprised if its anything more than 1 extra action first post in an even match. Second post is 5v4. Now it’s done. Over the permanent increases of other passives, it is not a must have. Its a freebie energizer with some strength.
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Post by Goku on Aug 19, 2023 16:06:36 GMT -5
I'm torn. I have tact 3 so 5 actions is my baseline and I feel that its very necessary, but it could also be because my opponents will always have tact 3 as well. Personally, I have not fought without tact since it was released. This is what I'm comfortable with, but I don't think that's a good enough reason.
Moving base actions down to 4 would require a bit more coordination between your attack and defenses, especially with the two limit advanced per post - this is a good thing to prevent too much unloading on your opponents or luldoj (which I have seen greatly reduced lately fwiw.) It also makes action increasers much more valuable.
On the flip side, it makes stuns increasingly more deadly. Techniques like Freezer Beam and Bankoku Bitsu Kuri Shiyou have 3 action stuns, but also have limited use and smaller DR to compensate for an already powerful stun ability. Stun grenade would be half your actions at the cost of 1 prepared item slot. Are the sufficient drawbacks for potentially reducing an opponents actions by 50% to 75%? Idk, I kind of want to see some battles done at base 4 with no tactician before making that call.
All that said, I am going to vote for 4 actions. It will be much easier to change tact and keep the base action to 4, and if that ends up throwing everything off we can easily hotfix in that 5th action. Some staff things move slow, but things like this can be dealt with quickly.
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Post by Quark on Aug 19, 2023 20:05:35 GMT -5
Its doesn't... make a difference. If everyone loses tactician, its the same playing field. I do acknowledge and agree with what Cain said too though.
I also think that Yan poses a valid question about the cap. In my first post, I always lose actions to the cap so its mostly for that reason that I voted 4 tbh.
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Post by Pagoma on Aug 20, 2023 18:05:41 GMT -5
I personally think less actions is better, but things like Hot Head that only give +1 for 2 turns (or 3? I forget) isn’t OP.
If Tact is scrapped I’d just say make the baseline 4 but the rest stays the same. Just my $.02 though.
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Post by Yua on Aug 21, 2023 3:46:25 GMT -5
 4 base actions makes your choices matter more, and it slows down both sides. Tact being needed was always a problem, even when the base actions were 3. As Cain said, the advanced spam is now capped, so it's not as bad as it was in the past. Stun grenades are gonna hurt a lot more now, though. Stun techs will become more powerful, though. A test battle to test this out might be a good idea. |
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Post by Bersimmon on Aug 22, 2023 19:45:07 GMT -5
This will force us to rebalance stun items a bit(And maybe Crush). I also hope that if this is enacted we'll be able to replace our tactician passives with a free new one.
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Post by Kale on Aug 22, 2023 20:10:10 GMT -5
I can understand the reasoning behind getting rid of Tactician since it's a must have for competitive battling. I'm usually against removing items and mechanics unless they are egregious in how they affect the game, however, in the case of this its a handicap not to have which shouldn't be the case for a single passive.
However for everyone voting for 4 actions instead of five. I understand the reasoning as it makes things such as stuns more impactful but we should be wary on how that would effect the action economy of many techniques given five being the number of actions in the absence of stat actions and items. Charging would cost half the base action cost at minimum same for techniques that case 2 actions base, breakstorm will cost an entire post worth of actions etc. Adjustments may have to be made to compensate if we decided on 4 instead of five if Tactician was removed.
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Bramble
Story Teller
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Post by Bramble on Aug 22, 2023 21:10:03 GMT -5
That's not an argument against 4 actions. Nor was this put on the board lightly for vote, I'd wager. It's still better than going back to 3 base actions.
As has been suggested a few times, we may want to have a test battle of sorts, just to see what it would be like.
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