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Post by Yamcha on Aug 19, 2023 21:18:13 GMT -5
This game could be better, for new and old players alike! A new player stands no chance of becoming competitive with the old guard! We have increased stats, starting techniques, etc for new people, and that's great, but it doesn't solve the whole problem.
If you have spent 10 years here (active, not Coner), you've collected a limitless inventory of items and abilities that have built on each other over the ages. If something doesn't take a limited slot, then it's something you just have for being here forever. I get it, you should have stuff for being devoted to the game for so long, but it shouldn't be limitless! I shouldn't be able to acquire an unlimited amount of +% to dmg, or defenses against uncharged advanced, or ways to recover used ki. I should have ways to get all those things, but they should be... capped!
If we figure out caps for a variety of these types of things, then we put a big roadblock in power creep. A new player might look at the game and see that, sure, Pain has +20% physical dmg because of combination of exclusive saga items and common equipment, but I can try to match that if I grind and get high in my organization. Sure, he's got 1.5m PL, but if I work my build right then I can get to a million PL and give him an honest run for the money.
Without these caps, people that have played the game for the longest (and maintained a competitive spirit) have an arsenal that new or returning players just can't hope to match. At best, they can have a shot at being competitive years after joining. Years. That's crazy! Competitive Pokemon battling is crazy and people spend tons of timing getting their EVs maxed, but regardless you only get to make 1 attack per turn, you only have 4 moves you can know, and you can only be Level 100. As a new participant in competitive Pokemon battling, I can get those same things. What I can't acquire quickly, and the advantage a long-time player has over me, is that they've got experience and tactical know-how that I don't.
As a long time, competitive player, Aria has tactical prowess and experience that Ember can't match no matter how much she writes. She can write a million words a day and get a high PL, but she can't just magick up some battling experience. That takes time. That should be the benefit of long-term play on this site. What shouldn't be the benefit is that you have a bottomless well of mechanical advantages you've stacked over the years. An unmatchable pool of +97% Base Strength from equipment.
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TLDR
Let's cap stuff. Ideas,
- +20% to a specific dmg type
- +20% to "all" dmg
- 3x% to damage reduction (look, we already have a cap for this! why not other stuff?)
- +100% Ki recovering per battle
- +5 (or 7, or 10, or w/e) additional actions per battle
That's just a start, and while other stuff seems a little trickier to think of caps for, I'm confident there is a way. The point is, we shouldn't have old players having infinite tricks and advantage. There are organic advantages to long-term play, but you shouldn't have every advantage over other people.
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Post by Goku on Aug 20, 2023 2:46:27 GMT -5
The only one I can really get behind is the capping of bonus damage/ bonus all damage. There should definitely be a cap on that, but I don't think 20% is the right number for reasons Chill mentioned. I do not know what the correct number would be honestly, but what is the highest right now with what items? What is the average per PL bracket?
Ki restoration should not be a big issue to due fatigue, but since fatigue is actively not being used in most cases.. well, that's your issue right there.
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Post by Turles on Aug 20, 2023 5:14:23 GMT -5
Ki restoration should not be a big issue to due fatigue, but since fatigue is actively not being used in most cases.. well, that's your issue right there. This. |
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Post by Yan Cass on Aug 20, 2023 11:49:01 GMT -5
I don’t think in the current DMG systems anyone needs to use over 200% ki. When that happened the fault was in a low damage damage system. However, even with this said, capping ki restoration is dumb af. If for some reason my opponent survives after I’ve spammed 200% ki and I still have a power up or a potion or something to get me more ki, I should be able to use it. I also agree with that sentiment of stamina drain. I don’t use it anymore unless my opponent asks me to. If we both agree not to use it we both agree to be able to spam ki. If even one battler wants it, then stamina drain is and should be implemented. If we are fighting this and going according to Alex’s system, using 200% ki you better be RPing yourself damn tired and I would say that would affect your dodges and blocks. Ask your ref to call him out for godmodding.
I can get behind bonus damage caps but it in NO way should be below damage reduction which is 35%. I lean towards 50% but then you have to decide what counts as bonus damage and what doesn’t which is a headache. Some items/abilities/etc double the damage of an attack. Some special abilities like Decisive Strikes automatically give 50% damage. Where does the Super Saiyan perk fit into that? If we’re talking JUST through equipment, maybe 40%. It’s slightly higher than damage reduction which you usually can only get through equipment (Changeling Perk should be changed imo. If not, again I lean to 50%). If we’re talking across the board with double damage shit existing it should be 150% lmao
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Bardock
Veteran Member
Posts: 359
Soul: Main
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Post by Bardock on Aug 20, 2023 15:50:01 GMT -5
Some QOL changes would be....
Nobody should need to waste 6 months of irl time to build a competitive tech list. Drives me up a wall. 0 new members who've never played this game would ever stick around for this. Master Trials help but it's not enough imo. Let people learn up to 4 techs a week please, or more. Stop punishing everyone just because Jordan changed his whole tech list before a battle (none of you should be meta gaming that hard anyways)
Speed Action = Can only be used to attempt a dodge. NOT to both attack OR dodge (NOT block cause you're trying to use speed for your leverage. Makes 0 sense to allow both blocking and attacking or dodging that's literally strength and toughness action advantage rolled up into one. Stop the speed whoring.)
Strength Action = Can only attack
Toughness Action = Can only block
Stamina Action = Ki restore [Restore +3% to Ki or something per turn idk]
Vitality Action = Idk someone make vitality viable
Hard cap on DR boosts depending on the type
[Fundamental Hard Cap at DR 4]
[Advanced Hard Cap at DR 8.5 (Besides Purple Flash/Iagari whatever)]
[Finisher Hard Cap at DR 13 or 14]
I don't agree with half the things Aria is allowed to do in a battle mechanically so if we can calm down on some of that that'd be cool too. If action lists in battles don't look like this....
1. Deflect vs. Bankoku Bitsu Kuri Shiyou]
2. Reversal + Daji's Flame Shield [-1% vs. Grand Smasher | DR: 4.5 | CE: Burn
3. Power Fly + Mortoseth Shadow Assault [-4%] DR: 4 | Strength: 199,071 | Speed: 439,892 | Lucky Freezing
4. Yokata Power Up [+25%]
...then it shouldn't be a thing. [This is a random Chaos action list vs Yan btw that didn't look horrendous]
Any stance or passive that increases action economy is a little much imo. Everyone has Crush stance and everyone has Tactician [as we know] and most people have Hot Head [which ignores the action limit for some reason.]
HARD Action Cap at 6 which should be rare to get to unless you have Double Zanzoken or Grapples or whatever.
That's all I got for now
Edit:
15 consecutive weeks for a martial arts uniform is absolutely asinine. That's 3 and a half months.
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Post by Galactic King on Sept 6, 2023 13:27:56 GMT -5
It’s more work but instead of artificially imposing limits we should take a look and make sure members organically cannot reach those limits.
As far as short term fixes though this does sound good and we prob will need to do something like this until we can fix the game. More discussion from members here would be beneficial so pls keep goin guys
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Post by Dr. Ghast on Sept 6, 2023 13:44:43 GMT -5
I agree with seven to a point there, as I had said in the Q&A as well, if we're trying to take down tactician, removing the action benefit of hothead should also be considered, even if it isn't as prevalent as tactician, it's almost guaranteed to replace it, thus making the amendment or removal of tactician nothing more than a pointless stopgap for another passive to become a "must", etc... so in the end a complete hard cap might actually be a good idea.
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Post by Goku on Sept 6, 2023 14:07:16 GMT -5
I agree with seven to a point there, as I had said in the Q&A as well, if we're trying to take down tactician, removing the action benefit of hothead should also be considered, even if it isn't as prevalent as tactician, it's almost guaranteed to replace it, thus making the amendment or removal of tactician nothing more than a pointless stopgap for another passive to become a "must", etc... so in the end a complete hard cap might actually be a good idea. Hot headed is not going to replace tactician or else everyone would already have it. It’s a nice perk but honestly hot headed has some major flaws, and I can say for sure once tactician is fully removed (as it should have been years ago) I will not be taking hot head. As the passives are currently, there is nothing that’s a must have since it all depends on your build. As it should be. |
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Post by Videl on Sept 15, 2023 14:33:44 GMT -5
I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but a lot of what you're saying is just unsubstantiated.
I agree, a reset could bring a wave of fresh, new ideas, but it's not a guarantee, and beyond people RPing the reason for why they've lost everything, I'd say this wave of new ideas would be fairly limited.
The rest of it is just mere conjecture. There's no evidence that suggests that a reset would bring in new players. Nor is there any evidence that a reset would suddenly make the community more welcoming. Personally, I've not had a problem with the community, at least not since 2008, which in hindsight, was just as much me being immature as it was other people.
Finally, I'm not sure how a reset would make people more diverse in their interactions. People will still have their preferred RP partners, and without an influx of members, I don't see that changing beyond how it is at the moment. Not to mention, I still see new people interacting all the time.
Look at Ember and how many different people she's interacted with since joining. Not only has she RP'd with more people than I probably have since first joining the site 15 years ago, but she's also already well on her way to making it into the top 25.
That's not me being close-minded, it's just how I see things. I don't see how a reset benefits things other than serving your own desire to be level with others, and that's coming from someone who is still a good million off of being in the top 25.
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Post by Galactic King on Sept 15, 2023 15:30:11 GMT -5
A reset would be one of the best things for the game if implemented correctly. It’s also never happening. Just want to be clear so nobody has incorrect expectations.
This is a good thing, because a reset would not be implemented correctly. You guys don’t want to trust any staff team with that large of a project.
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Post by Chaotzu on Sept 16, 2023 12:31:22 GMT -5
Hey pal, quit hijacking my thread.
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Post by Galactic King on Sept 16, 2023 14:49:20 GMT -5
If anyone actually wants this pls help compile a list of bonuses. It’s a big ask but we have a couple months and dozens of members. What gives Ki cost reduction, what gives damage increase, etc. Referencing this:
“If you have spent 10 years here, you've collected a limitless inventory of items and abilities that have built on each other over the ages. If something doesn't take a limited slot, then it's something you just have for being here forever.”
We’ll want to look at things broken down by effect, what slot (if any) it takes, and accessibility. For example if you can get +100% bonus Ki damage and you guys want a +50% cap, instead of implementing a 50% cap, we would make it so you can only get to 50% by min/maxing. That way people who have collected things still have an advantage over others instead of everybody just rolling around at the cap. We would do this without lowering the values of the effects so no one specific item is negatively affected. Rather, similar effects should be competing with one another for slots so they are not infinitely stacking.
So first step is collecting data. Second step is analyzing it. Third step is drawing conclusions (what the site wants the caps to be.) From there staff will discuss the best way to implement this cap organically.
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Post by Lilim on Sept 16, 2023 17:30:01 GMT -5
For example if you can get +100% bonus Ki damage and you guys want a +50% cap, instead of implementing a 50% cap, we would make it so you can only get to 50% by min/maxing. That way people who have collected things still have an advantage over others instead of everybody just rolling around at the cap. We would do this without lowering the values of the effects so no one specific item is negatively affected. Rather, similar effects should be competing with one another for slots so they are not infinitely stacking. I find myself rather opposed to this line of thinking. I'm actually entertaining the idea of additional caps being in place, but the more options there are to reach those caps, the more relaxed players would feel, especially in customizing their approach and journey through the site and its quests/sagas/functions, etc. If anything, I feel like having more ways to achieve these caps would be better in the long run, as it gives vets a lot of options in how they can customize how they do things as well as giving neweer players a lot more options in how to achieve the same general level of utility that veterans have. That's just my opinion on the matter though. A proposed reset isn't about erasing history but investing in new opportunities, creativity, and inclusivity. It’s a chance for renewed engagement, offering everyone a fresh page to script their journey. It's important to understand that when multiple members, across varied timelines, voice similar concerns, it's indicative of larger patterns, not individual shortcomings. I cannot find myself agreeing with this. Forcing a general reset on the existing playerbase doesn't actually accomplish what it is you wish to accomplish. By effectively resetting the rewards people have gained from their writing, plot, and battles here, you're essentially going to have a way opposite effect on many players in terms of engagement and creativity--you cannot disrespect past creativity for the sake of future creativity that has not been proven or even quantified. You're approaching the site purely from a power dynamic, rather than something that others have invested their time, creativity, and energy into. A lot of folks here got to where they are almost entirely through battles, only questing when they absolutely needed to in order to achieve better results in battles. You would effectively be ham-stringing their justly-deserved position on the site in favor of people that are way more active on the RP front. That's not to say the likes of Recoome or Dabura or Chaos couldn't find a way to compete and battle people after a reset; rather, I would rather not go out of my way to impair them just because the struggle to reach their level may seem insurmountable, at least at first. In terms of renewed engagement, resetting everyone would actually be a detriment to engagement, as it lowers the motivation some folks would have in terms of getting back onto the proverbial treadmill. While the new dynamic may promote more people to RP more heavily in order to strive towards being at the top, I feel like that's more of a focus on the Top 25 rather than actually getting something out of the site. I'd rather not focus on who's at what position on some imaginary podium and focus more on having great threads and stories with my friends. Some people see the podium as the reason to be competitive on the site--that's a valid way of playing too, and props to those that prefer it that way--but in terms of renewed engagement, I feel like people should be more open to RPing with us Vets and Vets being more open to RPing with as many people as possible to begin with; that's not an issue with power, that's just an issue with people not talking to one another or some folks just being busy or lazy. I try my hardest to include as many people as possible when RPing as Lilim or Daji. It's just in their nature, and I've always been open to RPing with anyone on this site. As far as Inclusivity goes, I straight up deny the idea that we've never been inclusive. The site may have a history of being, well, pretty harsh to one another, but at the end of the day, if you just wanted to RP, occasionally battle, and just have a good time, I've never known someone to actively try to fuck with that. Even when folks went after some of my planets, it was either because I talked hot shit and promptly got hit, or it was just a means to a bigger goal, and I was just in the way. Nothing wrong with that, frankly. At the end of the day, I don't see how we're not being inclusive--unless you're talking about inclusivity in terms of the battle system, in which case, the most inclusive method of combat would be rock-paper-scissors or a card game. That's not how this site has worked, and it will probably never change towards something like that. You could just ask if someone is willing to lower their power level/stats to yours for a battle and just have the ref enforce that agreement. That being said, I'm not deaf to what you're saying. Can things change for the better? Always--there's always some new innovation people are striving for in order to make things better around here, and there are constant talks and arguments about that. A full reset wouldn't accomplish that except be an actual death-knell for the site, at least as far as the current roster of players are concerned, due to hugely-decreased motivation from those that are already here. This isn't a "we liked it the way it was" so much as "Why are we being punished for engaging with the site as it was?" I would rather explore options (such as Dabura's proposal for some caps on things) for a much healthier system. "Hogging all the enjoyment for yourself" in the Top 10 kind of indicates what I'm talking about though--because the task feels so foreboding, you treat it as if it is impossible. I had (and still have) so much fun on this site when I wasn't in the top 10, because then I wasn't an active part of the competition and grind. If anything, being in the Top 10 frankly makes you a target rather than something to enjoy. If you cannot enjoy this site without being 1 of 10 of the most powerful characters, then I'm not sure what it is you're prioritizing other than just having power and lording it over others. If being an incredibly-powerful figure is the only way you can enjoy battles or RP, then I feel like you may not have earned that particular power fantasy here. You don't need that; I straight up have Lilim play up Dabura as a peer, rather than someone weaker than her, because that makes sense in the story, regardless of the actual statistics. If anything truly needed to change in terms of new player experience, I feel like giving them suggested quest lines and the playerbase having a more active role in their experience would be far more conducive rather than just punishing everyone else just because they were here for the long-haul. |
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Post by Yamcha on Sept 16, 2023 19:28:42 GMT -5
I swear on all that is holy I will have you banned forever if you reply to this thread one more time with anything that is not DIRECTLY related to my original post. No, wait, scratch that. If you reply with anything less than a comprehensive list of everything that Galactic King asked for. Seriously bro, shut the fuck up. |
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Post by Goku on Sept 16, 2023 19:37:18 GMT -5
Yeah keep the subject on topic of the original post or warns will be issued.
Do not derail this thread with your thinly disguised diatribes.
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