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Post by Puar on Jan 8, 2024 7:30:11 GMT -5
DR Problem Solver - -All DR increases drop from +1 DR to +25% bonus damage -Universally Charging makes all techniques hard to defend and +25% bonus damage instead of +1 DR -Anything that increases DR, will increase it by 25% per 1 DR it increased it by. -Keep Negative DR makers the same. -Not effecting the already established DR System, just anything that increases a tech from its original DR.
Goal: To keep DRs flat and prevent these outrageous DR Increasing builds. Bonus Damage is more valuable in a lot of cases, which is the con of switching to bonus damage from DRs, but in this situation I think the pro outweighs the con.
Bonus Damage is far easier to keep track of and in most cases adding +1 DR and then adding bonus damage on top of it creates even stronger attacks than just having flat bonus damage across the board. Of course, with everything I put out its just shower thoughts that can and need to be refined. I feel that charging should be more about the technique being harder to defend (most items and technique blocks can't fully stop charged techniques) and less about extra damage.
That way we can keep the Damage Rating System at the pace we have without changing much. This is fully for DR increasers -- the DR System itself doesn't need to be touched (except stating its like at max +75% the next instead of double, cuz double is still too much imo).
This would effect -- all the increasers -- Master, Signature, Fisticuffs, AWA, temp boosters and all that.
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Post by Lilim on Jan 8, 2024 8:19:05 GMT -5
I'm not opposed to this idea, but I'm not 100% on-board either, mostly due to the fact customs exist. The more we nerf things that increases the damage of techniques, the more attractive high-DR techniques and customs will be, especially those that are unusually Ki-efficient. That being said, I do sympathize with the goal a little.
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Post by Riki on Jan 8, 2024 17:41:20 GMT -5
I'm not opposed to this idea, but I'm not 100% on-board either, mostly due to the fact customs exist. The more we nerf things that increases the damage of techniques, the more attractive high-DR techniques and customs will be, especially those that are unusually Ki-efficient. That being said, I do sympathize with the goal a little. Alright ignoring race techs and team techs, prices are: So almost every DR7 costs 15%+ ki which is not cheap. The DR6’s is where ki cost becomes erratic but this would help that as now they can’t get to DR7. Everyone already has Dragon Dive. Anyone evil with fire temple has Planet Cracker (but again, now Fire Temple will not make it a DR7) 12% is a reasonable cost compared to 15% for the next highest DR and Kakusandan should just cost more ki honestly. While Ki Manip and the like can get these below 10% most damage systems factor in the ability KO only after face tanking 4 DR7s (or should) under the impression that 8 blocked is 120% ki before reduction, 80% after max reduction and folks can dodge and there are 100 million defense techs. Custom DR7s cost 16% ki and Custom DR6s cost 13% so again, ki cost is on point. So, I do not agree or think this would change people’s tech lists at all.
That said, I specifically have a high af DR build that is extremely ki efficient because I have DR boosters that can get charged Dirty Fireworks (9% ki), Daichiretsuzan (6% ki), and Ki Sword (7% ki) to a DR8. In this proposed system, assuming DRs go by +75%, instead of being a DR8 its a DR6 greatly reducing the firepower.
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Post by Cell on Jan 8, 2024 18:12:54 GMT -5
I see how this would be a fix because you’re saying damage increases on top of DR increases adds up too much.
If we are suggesting an overhaul: step 1 is reviewing the DR increases. Seeing what can be shifted. Similar bonuses should take competing slots, so someone can’t stack identical bonuses. Or if they do, that should be a min/max scenario where they are maximizing DR bonuses and minimizing anything else. Currently, people can dip their hands into a bit of everything.
If you are wanting an emergency fix: we could say bonus damage does not stack multiplicatively, but rather, additively. A DR increase is +100% damage.
Let’s declare DR 1 as X. So if you have something that increases damage by 10%, and you use a DR 1, you are currently doing X + 10%. If you do a DR 2, you are doing 2X + 10%. If you have a DR 3, that is 4X + 10%.
Under Arias suggestion but keeping the numbers the same, it would now be DR 1 is X + 10%. DR 2 is X + 110%. DR 3 is X + 410%.
Now let’s set X as 100, just to better see the difference. Currently, DR 1 + 10% is 110. DR 2 + 10% is 220. DR 3 + 10% is 440.
Under your suggestion, but 100% not 25%, it becomes DR 1 + 10% remains 110. DR 2 + 10% becomes 210. DR 3 + 10% becomes 410.
What do you think? This immediately addresses your concern of the bonus damage % scaling with DR.
I am open to numbers adjustment. Though, obviously that will be a lot of work and requires everyone’s approval. I also haven’t really looked at 25% so I don’t want to lead you on. I don’t know if I’ll agree or disagree. But the idea itself is really solid and I think this opens the door easier for now.
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Post by Dabura on Jan 8, 2024 20:28:00 GMT -5
Cell No one doubles DRs. The site has said that since the dawn of time, and after all these years there's still no reputable battler or ref that feels each DR should be double the last. Depending on your starting point, DR1s are either useless, or DR10s are way OP (nevermind DR14s, 15s, etc) The only way that even begins to feel like it could work would be to decrease the DR scale to a smaller ceiling, maybe even down to 5. [Side note - that's a good idea, we should do it] In regards to the original suggestion, I absolutely agree. I'd probably lean towards an even smaller amount for DR increases (10%), but the theory behind it I can definitely get down with.
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Post by Cell on Jan 8, 2024 20:52:44 GMT -5
I can only speak to what’s on the site. I understand refs don’t typically process damage in that way. But in the same way, refs can simply choose to follow Aria’s suggestion with no changes made to the site. So if a suggestion is being made to change the site, that’s the easiest and fastest way to implement it while we wait pending further discussion that likely goes nowhere if I’m being completely honest. Otherwise, people should continue to do what they want to do when handling damage.
Otherwise, you’re going to get a reply from Alex saying damage doesn’t exist. And nobody wants that. Gotta tread carefully.
That being said, I think DR 10 was intended to be the pinnacle of damage. There wasn’t really an easy way back then to get to DR 14 without spending all your actions/resources. And if you did that, you’d lose, because taking a DR 7 would KO you. There’s been a lot of changes to the site so I don’t disagree that damage should be updated. But when I reply to suggestions, I obv gotta go based on what the site says. Ppl don’t follow it but it’s still what it is.
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Post by Dabura on Jan 8, 2024 21:01:05 GMT -5
I think the suggestion is to change DR boosters on the site to instead add a certain amount of bonus % dmg instead. That's what Aria's whole post boils down to, he just goes to lengths to explain how its a minimal change from a work stand-point, but a significant one in terms of the health of the battle system.
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Post by Lilim on Jan 9, 2024 3:47:12 GMT -5
I'm not opposed to this idea, but I'm not 100% on-board either, mostly due to the fact customs exist. The more we nerf things that increases the damage of techniques, the more attractive high-DR techniques and customs will be, especially those that are unusually Ki-efficient. That being said, I do sympathize with the goal a little. Alright ignoring race techs and team techs, prices are: So almost every DR7 costs 15%+ ki which is not cheap. The DR6’s is where ki cost becomes erratic but this would help that as now they can’t get to DR7. Everyone already has Dragon Dive. Anyone evil with fire temple has Planet Cracker (but again, now Fire Temple will not make it a DR7) 12% is a reasonable cost compared to 15% for the next highest DR and Kakusandan should just cost more ki honestly. While Ki Manip and the like can get these below 10% most damage systems factor in the ability KO only after face tanking 4 DR7s (or should) under the impression that 8 blocked is 120% ki before reduction, 80% after max reduction and folks can dodge and there are 100 million defense techs. Custom DR7s cost 16% ki and Custom DR6s cost 13% so again, ki cost is on point. So, I do not agree or think this would change people’s tech lists at all.
That said, I specifically have a high af DR build that is extremely ki efficient because I have DR boosters that can get charged Dirty Fireworks (9% ki), Daichiretsuzan (6% ki), and Ki Sword (7% ki) to a DR8. In this proposed system, assuming DRs go by +75%, instead of being a DR8 its a DR6 greatly reducing the firepower. Fair enough! Consider myself corrected--totally on board with Puar's suggestion then.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 3:49:09 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding like a noob... what does all of this mean?
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Post by Lilim on Jan 9, 2024 3:55:51 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding like a noob... what does all of this mean? Basically, according to the main site, each step on the DR scale doubles the damage of the previous. So a DR2 is twice the damage of a DR1, DR3 is twice the damage of a DR2, etc. There are a lot of things on the site, accordingly, that can boost the DR of a technique, such as Fisticuffs boosting the DR of physical and hybrid attacks. What Puar is suggesting is changing all the things that boost DR into just granting a much-lower damage increase. So instead of something that increases the DR of a technique by 1, it would instead just increase the damage of that technique by +25% (so from +100% damage to +25% damage). For example, Lilim can boost Heat Phalanx from DR 4 to DR 5.5 (due to Fire Temple and Fisticuffs/Advanced Fisticuffs), but under Puar's suggestion, she would instead keep it at DR4 but with a +37.5% damage increase, which would lower the overall damage of the technique. This would help in making sure techniques don't continue to inflate in damage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 4:02:47 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding like a noob... what does all of this mean? Basically, according to the main site, each step on the DR scale doubles the damage of the previous. So a DR2 is twice the damage of a DR1, DR3 is twice the damage of a DR2, etc. There are a lot of things on the site, accordingly, that can boost the DR of a technique, such as Fisticuffs boosting the DR of physical and hybrid attacks. What Puar is suggesting is changing all the things that boost DR into just granting a much-lower damage increase. So instead of something that increases the DR of a technique by 1, it would instead just increase the damage of that technique by +25% (so from +100% damage to +25% damage). For example, Lilim can boost Heat Phalanx from DR 4 to DR 5.5 (due to Fire Temple and Fisticuffs/Advanced Fisticuffs), but under Puar's suggestion, she would instead keep it at DR4 but with a +37.5% damage increase, which would lower the overall damage of the technique. This would help in making sure techniques don't continue to inflate in damage. You just explained that SO well. Thank you!!! 😭 That being said, I agree - I like the idea.
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Post by Shell on Jan 9, 2024 9:11:58 GMT -5
Goal: To keep DRs flat and prevent these outrageous DR Increasing builds. Bonus Damage is more valuable in a lot of cases, which is the con of switching to bonus damage from DRs, but in this situation I think the pro outweighs the con.
So the meta build becomes +Damage % not +DR.
DR's have caps on everything that are not finishers.
Double Damage DR hasn't existed since Alex posted you should be able to take 10 Advanced techniques and not be dead... It might be on the site, but no one has used it because DR 7.5 is deadly at that point.
I'm not going to say no, but we need to test it out a few times first. Saying it will work is one thing, but I'd like to see if it truly would make a difference or if people would just stack +damage stuff and ultimately the same result would happen.
Dragon Dive [DR6] - 6% Planet Cracker [DR6] - 8% Kakusandan [DR6] 10%
Clearly these techs need more Ki Cost based on the information provided. Or others need reduction
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Post by Yajirobe on Jan 9, 2024 9:53:25 GMT -5
Not a bad idea on paper but it won't mean anything if you calculate damage the same arbitrary way.
If two people of similar stats are battling and Battler A blocks a DR 1 +25% and Battler B blocks 2 SAs from Battler A then which one will you put in your spreadsheet did the most damage? Is the blocked DR 1 +25% calculated less than a blocked DR 2 would have been?
If so then why can't the blocked DR 2 be calculated the same way you would have calculated the blocked DR 1 +25% anyways? There's no set formula for how damage is calculated anyways so even if you go the "well the DR 2 is double the DR 1 so I double the damage calculation" you're basing it off of numbers that only exist to you (i.e. a blocked Fire Breath [DR 1.5] deals "1.7% damage").
The real elephant in the room to me is how DR is calculated.
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Post by Puar on Jan 18, 2024 9:17:42 GMT -5
Not a bad idea on paper but it won't mean anything if you calculate damage the same arbitrary way. If two people of similar stats are battling and Battler A blocks a DR 1 +25% and Battler B blocks 2 SAs from Battler A then which one will you put in your spreadsheet did the most damage? Is the blocked DR 1 +25% calculated less than a blocked DR 2 would have been? If so then why can't the blocked DR 2 be calculated the same way you would have calculated the blocked DR 1 +25% anyways? There's no set formula for how damage is calculated anyways so even if you go the "well the DR 2 is double the DR 1 so I double the damage calculation" you're basing it off of numbers that only exist to you (i.e. a blocked Fire Breath [DR 1.5] deals "1.7% damage"). The real elephant in the room to me is how DR is calculated. What you are addressing is a base damage spreadsheet, which I think should be encouraged. What you don't get to see is the success and failure scaling that each ref gives based on how they like the RP. A DR1 could do 1.7% damage but then if they blocked or took the attack with exceptional RP behind it, that changes it as well. I get what you always say about how rigid it is, but I always think you look at it with just one eye open. (I don't think you are wrong, but I always think you are only half right) A Base damage is just a blueprint. the Ref is the architect that makes the magic happen how they want it to. But yea the difference between two battlers with similar stats will be the opinion on who is the better writer and should always be that. I just feel behind stable damage makes it both fair and easy. The elephant in the room will be not having a stable DR1 - 10 chart that has specific damages and keeping it that consistent with just having bonus damage alter the strength of the DRs.
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