Speed Benefits Purposed Change

I would argue that getting rid of the Speed action pretty much guts any use for Speed. Ever since criticals were nerfed with the whole not being able to proc with multiple contacts, the only real point in extra hits is a tiny bit of extra damage AFAIK.

I wouldn't say it's weird that someone gets a speed action on the opponent they target and not another in a group battle-- they are faster than the person they target, therefore they can move faster and get more attacks in on that particular person. Just make it to where your Speed action can only be dedicated to attacks that are single target versus the person you're faster than to avoid abuse on that front.

Strength determines damage, toughness determines defense, vitality determines your rough health (with most refs nowadays) and stamina determines your energy. Gut the Speed action and you're not making Speed even with everything else, you're making it the least important stat all of a sudden. It already doesn't add onto general power level, so who cares if you have people who stack speed like motherfuckers. They just know where they want to pour their resources.

With Burter on the better of the two should be the more expensive one. Double physicals can be pretty great (I’m still hurting from that fight with Chishan lmao) but action economy is way more important in current meta. If we’re going what makes sense, then whats more likely at lower speed, getting a few more jabs in or a full new attack?

As for removing it, I’m not completely against that either simply because speed meta is freaking ridiculous lately. Everyone and their mom is dumping into speed. If their only reason is an extra action take it away. Speed is important without it. It determines how realistic a block or dodge is. Refs controlling dodge fails is a tricky issue but I know I’ll go for the block if it doesn’t make sense for me to be able to dodge it scott free. At the end of the day someone’ll dodge whatever when they know only blocking will hurt them too much, but at least in battles I see a lot of Zanzokens, STs, etc being used to boost these dodges so you have somewhat reasonable speed behind it.

If you’re going for the ToM suck it up. If you actually care about a legit speed build you know what you’re doing with it without expecting a speed action against an otherwise even opponent. In my Top 3 Speed opinion anyway ;D (not that that means more lol)

But the least we can do is switch it.

I'm okay either way, swap or not. That being said it is extremely powerful if you can manage the extra speed action, perhaps its too powerful, perhaps not.   For instance, someone who devotes much of their effort to concentrating on speed will of course not gain as much PL as someone who does not. Yes, Player X may have 500k PL and 100k Speed (on average twice his other stats), but Player Y with similar effort would have 700k PL and 70k speed. The two are probably fairly evenly matched despite the PL difference.  PL is just a number, and incomplete.  It is much easier to raise +all stats than one in particular.  Speed gives you a huge advantage over fighting people your own PL if they have not invested as heavily in speed as yourself...but if you've invested that heavily into speed, make it a challenge for yourself and fight an appropriate opponent.  

If you are looking at fighting someone then all of their stats, gear, techniques, items, and yes speed is a factor and should be considered thoroughly. It's fine to pick a fight with anyone really, but with a chance of winning you need some advantages, or at least lack of disadvantages. If I concentrate on speed, I feel comfortable fighting above my PL because I don't lose that speed action.  I'd be foolish to pick of fight with someone with higher PL, higher speed, better gear etc.. Unless i just think I can out type the crap out of them (let's be honest, even if you can, thats not a fun battle)

I am fine if it changes, we will all adjust I'm sure. But i think if we quit looking at PL as the major benchmark instead of the overall picture, its gonna look like an OP stat. Its a stat. Its powerful. Keep that in mind when deciding who you battle, not just their power in relation to your own...if you guys have taught me anything this last 8 months, thats probably it.  

OK. We had a pretty good discussion about speed and the speed action in discord.

I think the most important thing to get out of the way is the speed action does not define the benefit of speed. People stacked speed before the action was a thing, people stacked speed after Alex nerfed it back in 2012 or whenever he changed Entai and made people retroactively change their speed. People have always had speed builds because it has incredible value and always will - it helps to determine dodges and successful hits. Speed is and will be an important part of battling but at the moment it is becoming too meta due to the extra action.

Action economy wins battles. Yes, your strategy, PL, gear, items, gear, etc, all play a hand in whether or not you will win but if you place two opponents of equal level, skill and gear but one has the speed action then 9 times out of 10 the one with the speed action will win. It's not like the speed-enhancing techniques and stuns items and techniques that require some tactical thought to utilize, those are a completely different topic.

I think the biggest and main question we need to ask ourselves is: Do we really want the meta to be placed so heavily on speed and actions? Tactician also falls in this because both actions require no thought to use but are essential to be competitive in battle. They aren't cool bonuses anymore or neat tactical abilities that help to give you an edge in battle - these extra actions are battle changers and you are a gimp without them, or at the very least negating your opponent from taking advantage of them. Double speed is a start to helping to fix this awful meta, removing it is ideal.

I think the argument of equal grounds but Speed action means they aren't on equal grounds. The fact that someone spent X Amount of DP or time or gear or whatever to get to where they had the speed action on someone. At higher levels if that means I have 100k more speed then someone that is if put into another stat 200k more PL which would likely make us not on the equal level anymore giving some of the advantages Krillin mentioned above. Is it an extra action, no, but it does. I know when I started you had actions simply based on your speed stat, but that was 2013 so I'm not sure about what was before that.

I get that speed does more than speed action, but Speed Action as stated because of Action Economy is super important.

I'm against removing it entirely as it should be a perk. My mind went into a much more detailed and convoluted way of handling something because I also see things like Dogpiling that become even better if someone can't get a speed action on someone which was one way to slow it down at least.



Other Things... Speed action is Single Target Attack (NO AOE or Multi Target is allowed unless 1 v 1 Obviously) vs person you have it on or defense against person you have it on. If you are outnumbered you can freely swap targets so not sure how it makes it weird, but I might not understand that comment.