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Post by Yamcha on Dec 10, 2019 17:26:54 GMT -5
Fixes IMO
1) Let's change the names of some stuff to avoid confusion.
Stamina Drain = Stamina Drain
Energy = Usuable % of Ki
2) Base stats are GOD. Everything comes out of, or affects, base stats. I'm sure there are things people can come up with that should be exceptions, pls present them so we can address that.
3) Yan wants attacks made more powerful by transformations to be more costly. That's reasonable. Or we can just make transformations more costly on their own. I say let that cost SIMPLY be energy cost per action. We can increase energy cost across the board to make this matter more. I'd love to see more people battling in base form and using transformations strategically.
4) We get rid of vit drain entirely. Instead we can institute a mechanic where people can emphasize Vitality and in return be able to take more damage before being KO'd.
5) Much as I have done above for Vit, we can give Toughness a concrete benefit as well. For every 1% over 25% (again, round down to the nearest whole number), you will receive 2% damage reduction. This will not exceed the 35% cap.
6) Following the same general ideas as above, Strength can give defined benefits. For every 1% over 25% (rounding down), you will receive a .5% increase in damage on all attacks.
7) Pls discuss in an orderly fashion. (Failure to do so will result in posts deleted and further punishments - Love Shell)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 17:33:34 GMT -5
Word
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Post by Lilim on Dec 10, 2019 19:03:24 GMT -5
1) Agreed
2) I've always been of the opinion that base stats + positive modifiers - negative modifiers. Basically, everything you have going for you applies first, then all of the negatives apply (including fatigue and damage). That always seems to me the best way of figuring out where you're supposed to be, but I'm up for difference of opinion on that. One thing I will concede is that there needs to be a solid, defined method of determining where your stats are supposed to be so everyone can agree from that common ground. It feels like a lot of people calculate it differently, which is odd, I guess.
3) Honestly, if you want to increase the ki cost of transformations across the board, I'd suggest lowering Android transformations a hefty sum, rather than giving them a ki cost to begin with? Then again, I haven't been on much this last year, so if they were assigned a ki cost recently, disregard this one.
4) I'm of the opinion if we keep stamina drain from Ki use, we need to have a system of determining vitality drain (damage against stats) as well. Trying to assign these different mechanics to stats rather than keeping things as consistent as possible is what causes a lot of problems, I think. Even if vitality drain has to be derived from Ki (much like stamina drain is), I think that'd be a more positive direction. More than a few people have complained that Vitality doesn't really *do* anything.
5-6) You might want to have strength bonus to damage and toughness bonus to resistance cancel each other out (so if someone has +7% to damage and an opponent has +5% reduction, they cancel each other out, and the strength-focused character just does an additional +2% damage), otherwise, you're looking at a particular cap for toughness where none exists for strength. Don't get me wrong, I love strength buffs, but I want it to make sense first. That being said, none of these are particularly as potent as the almighty speed action, but we can determine what the 'bonus' is once we've agreed on the 'method' of achieving that bonus, I think. The payout can be decided later, tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 20:20:30 GMT -5
I'd be cool with Mp but I guess either works.
This wouldn't be much different than the way things are now but this would eliminate the heavy drain on stats when releasing a transformation due to the higher Ki in that form. I'd prefer temporary buffs remain based on current stats. (Aka techs that affect a select amount of actions or a single post = abilities like Speed Teleport/Flames of Hell)
I wouldn't mind that but I feel like Androids should be left alone. Sure, no trans cost is a large advantage but Androids have an even more ridiculous disadvantage to compensate besides the lowest stats on their transformations. #notastrategyguide
I'd be against this. Vit drain needs to exist to show how much weaker your character gets from taking damage. I'd think a tech series like Ki Mastery for Vit might be a good idea though. At least slow down the drain a bit.
I dislike the idea of decreasing/increasing damage. We have too much of that already with defensive techs/items out our asses and increasing DR's with just about everything. I feel that adding a mechanic like this to our stats, although interesting, would make things even more convoluted than they already are. I know you're well aware that some people still can't follow the current battle system or even calculate their stats properly, never mind adding more for them to be confused by.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 20:29:47 GMT -5
^ Good points all the way around
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Post by Shell on Dec 10, 2019 22:02:52 GMT -5
1. I did always wonder why we had the same name for 2 different things.
2. I just don't like overly mathing stuff. If I have Base + Percentages + Static and Base changes it just feels like more maths to me. I know excel can do this for ya, but still just my push back on that. It is probably not life changing, just annoying, but I can get over it.
3. I actually know we talked about having Transformations be per post not action before. Also the idea of it not hitting Stamina Drain, I think was tossed out before too. Might have been just in dm's though. I do think anytime we mess with this that it alters Androids and I did an entire mathed out post before about how it is really just a 10% PL difference on even people for Androids to not have to pay ki cost per action. If we deter transformations then Androids need a determent for those because it is a massive advantage.
4. I don't really hate vitality drain. I think it is a good judge of how much taking a beating impacts you. I also don't think it needs to be standardized as people like to keep saying it should. It should be up to a ref.
5 and 6. Any Kind of STR and Toughness Perks wouldn't suck. It is why I tossed out that idea for STR Action being Offense only and Toughness action being Defense Only, we have also Speed Action (Can only use 1 in a post, maybe 1 per opponent if team battle???)
We had some other things that needed to be brought up in post battle discussion. I don't remember what all that was tbh....
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Mila
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Soul: Major Second
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Post by Mila on Dec 10, 2019 22:35:06 GMT -5
Like everything else you guys can work on and stuff but #3. I agree 400% to this. I want transformations to actually mean something and not be something we just jump right into.
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Post by Hiiragi Junior on Dec 10, 2019 22:54:09 GMT -5
I'm pretty cool with all of this. Especially 3. As general rule I like to have my character rock base form just to build something up...sucks when the other guy just jumps straight to his final form.
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Post by Yan Cass on Dec 11, 2019 12:49:30 GMT -5
2. I'm still not completely on board with base stats changing for everything, and am definitely with Vier for temp boosts being on current. It would be switching things up to be: Base > Current Base > Modifiers vs Base > Modifiers > Drain so it's not a huge difference. At this point I'm kinda like fuck all drain stuff though cuz y'all have made it super hard core, way more than it needs to be, so making it off base helping to stop you from reaching that point, I may have to fold 3. I think a lot of people are on board with making transformations more costly, and it's obvious that making the stamina drain higher on attacks transformed is not a deterrent to transforming, just staying transformed. This would change transformations at their core though, and would require a lot of discussion and thought and exactly how to increase them. +.2% on all trans? No transform reg? All my SP thooooo lol 4, 5, 6. I was talking to Juch and Grim about this, and the concern we were discussing is that Androids would have zero purpose for the Stamina Stat. You'd have buffs for all the other stats and an android could simply aim to have their stamina stat as close to zero as possible with is pretty iffy imo. They'd have the benefit of having zero drain ever but it's like ehhh... It was also brought up that then the build would auto be for vitality while maxing toughness with gear for the longest lasting build, and that has more benefits then focusing on strength. It also becomes a situation of why have a balanced build at all with this, which I don't want to deter balanced builds. I think they're legit for a number of styles and would honestly like to see a buff for those since we have stat favoring across the board these days. I'm also getting on board with the point that these things could be super cool, and I like the idea of them, but do we really want them for real or need them? Stats have become so prominent in game, and I feel like folks need to step back a bit and chill. But we only have a few refs and they'll do what they'll do. Would this help that or make that worse? I'm not sure tbh. At the end of the day, I think we should keep vitality drain, but I think it should I get Hit is against this as he has a very specific style of reffing and wants full control over shit, but do refs deserve it? When you have stamina drain, you know ahead of time what ki you can spend. You know where you need to make a stand before you start draining the rest of your stats. You have a good idea of what you can and can't do before then and after then. The same should apply to vitality drain. You should know, okay, I take this much more damage, I'm gonna slow down/get weaker/aka lose all stats. I can afford to take this much damage still while still keeping the speed action. I can still get hit this much before my PL is gonna dip lower than I can blast cancel. Basically all the shit stats are still relevant for. Having a ref be able to go "lol, on my whim, because I'm not explaining exactly how I do the drain, you get this extra amount you weren't expecting" is trash. Refs would still have the power of assigning exactly how much DMG a player received keeping them in a powerful position, but with DMG you can kind of get a gist of a ref's system as the battle goes on. We are having battles be lost just because of all stat drain. Having it off base would help that, but I also think rather than have some kind of ki mastery, which keeps being brought up, it should simply be standardized: IE.
PL: 800
Ki: 400
Str: 100
Spd: 100
Tou: 100
Stam: 100
Vit: 100
You recieve 10% dmg
400 x 10% x 25% = -10 vitality This way, if you prioritized vitality, you can take like 100% dmg without worrying about your all stats (though you can still dip down from healing damage that doesn't heal fatigue). If you didn't at least keep it balanced you're gonna be dipping late game or sooner. With this, there's less need for more fatigue healing items and makes drain relevant but not always game ending. It's already mastered to 25% for you, and you'd know exactly what you're getting into.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 13:52:53 GMT -5
I also think rather than have some kind of ki mastery, which keeps being brought up, it should simply be standardized I made that same suggestion for Stamina drain. Instead, we got the Ki Mastery series. Given the past outcome, one would be inclined to think that something similar for Vitality drain would turn out the same. |
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Post by Jared Miruzuki on Dec 11, 2019 14:59:23 GMT -5
ki masteries makes sense to me. it takes training to know how to use ki at all so coming out as being able to use it to the full extent off the bat isn't realistic. Ki Masteries emulates effort into learning how to use it to the fullest at the smallest possible toll on your body. pretty much how is ee that. Vitality could use a standardization though
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 15:25:22 GMT -5
ki masteries makes sense to me. it takes training to know how to use ki at all so coming out as being able to use it to the full extent off the bat isn't realistic. Ki Masteries emulates effort into learning how to use it to the fullest at the smallest possible toll on your body. pretty much how is ee that. Vitality could use a standardization though I get it. Training ones body to endure harsh treatment just wouldn't be the same. It should be innate. |
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Post by Inactive Krillin on Dec 11, 2019 20:18:38 GMT -5
1. sure, sounds good.
2. this would be helpful, even if some things need to be adjusted accordingly, should make things simpler in the long run
3. I'm okay with this one way or another. I took very ki efficient attacks for the most part so that I could fight transformed for prolonged periods of time, but it should be easy to change it up a bit. I did take some big AoE nukes for some flash too. Either way, I'm good with transformations costing more or not.
4-6. I'm for and against this at the same time and I'll explain why. So lets say I have 30% toughness, and 30% vitality. I get benefits for each. Should I receive a damage reduction because I have more toughness as a portion of my PL, even though my opponent has 4x my toughness in strength. I like the idea of them having benefits, but perhaps make the benefit in relationship to your opponents stats, not your other stats. I know this does benefit higher PL people in general, but I feel like its supposed to be that way. Perhaps for every 25% more toughness than your opponents strength you get that 2% damage reduction vs physical attacks? Vitality could just be a vit vs vit marker. Not sure if this is feasible mind you, just spitballing my thoughts.
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Post by Chaotzu on Dec 11, 2019 20:26:57 GMT -5
I am wholeheartedly against the idea of gaining concrete benefits for having higher stats than your opponent. Speed Action exist currently to the collective woah of the site but I'd hate to see any of my above suggestions applied between two opponent's. That is the turning point when we truly becoming a stat site and not a RP site.
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Post by Mikhail Kageyama on Dec 18, 2019 22:04:23 GMT -5
ki masteries makes sense to me. it takes training to know how to use ki at all so coming out as being able to use it to the full extent off the bat isn't realistic. Ki Masteries emulates effort into learning how to use it to the fullest at the smallest possible toll on your body. pretty much how is ee that. Vitality could use a standardization though I get it. Training ones body to endure harsh treatment just wouldn't be the same. It should be innate. I would compromise this and have it be unlockable. For example: At 10k PL you receive KM1. 40K PL KM2. 100K PL KM3. This goes with what Junior is saying that it should be something we work up to, but also makes it innate to an extent. It's not something you are actively doing with your body, it just comes as part of the training. EDIT: More. I'm surprised we didn't do this before. Yes. I also really wanna throw in the idea of Active Stats. We already have it on the site to an extent, but I want to broaden it. Active Stats are stats which don't affect your PL but still increase something. For now we have toughness on armor, which increases your Active Toughness but doesn't increase PL at all. To an extent we already have Active Strength too, with weapons Which shouldn't really increase your PL. Trunks doesn't need his sword to be strong, as we saw in the battle with King Cold. So items or abilities that increase your Active Stats could add a new level of strategy to the mix. However, admittedly, we don't want to make this into a numbers game... I fear we're already heading that way. This, I disagree with, but I'm all about compromise. In the show we see a ramp up of power, and that is always really exciting. My suggestion would be essentially a carrot and stick for going step by step on transformations. Transforming straight to any transformation beyond your first (or equivalent 20-30k trans) essentially doubles the drain taken. You're just throwing your body into a brand new level of power, which can fuck you up. However, as you move up the scale (Giji->SSJ->SSJ2) you can recover a modicum of Energy when you do. This makes it easier for us to battle a little longer while keeping battles more exciting. And obviously you can't transform more than once per turn. That's... I mean that should be obvious for this. Vit drain was a massive mistake. Whoever instituted that needs to be sad about themselves. However my concern about that mechanic is we're kinda... creating HP for our characters. In a sense. And that's moving further towards Statsville. Moreover, in this case, would other stats being lower make them weaker? What's to stop me from having 10% Strength and 30% the other four stats when I can hit just as hard that way? Also Androids? We wanna prevent a mass exodus to Androids. Again, with the thing. I know in WoW there used to be a spell hit cap? Or crit cap? Where, once you get that amount of hit or crit, it was stupid to get any more. I feel like this will push us towards doing that kind of exact math, if we're not doing it already. Again with this one. I refuse. And Shell is a poop. But seriously, to add on to this: Additionally I feel like the reduction of the RP Award (15% to 10% for higher PL) was a mistake we should reverse. Any attempt to weaken the power of RP, especially when we're trying to fine tune the roll of stats, should be rectified with a vengeance. I like this site because I like writing competitively. It provides a unique opportunity to do so and I feel like it keeps me sharp as a writer. So it's disheartening to see that Player A can roll up with 100k and write the post of his life whereas Player B can come in with 130k and "nah son" and somehow those two things are equal. I feel strongly that any tech, any item, anything, should be able to be undone by the writing. Amending what Burter said at the beginning: Base stats are KING. Roleplaying is GOD. |
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